Data centres are a fast-growing sector in engineering but can also be incredibly fast projects with timelines as short as a year. How do you work at that speed and still deliver quality and innovation?
Winthrop Technologies has grown from being a MEP business in the nineties to delivering turnkey data centres all across Europe today, with a turnover expected to exceed €1bn in 2022.
What is it like to lead a company working at this scale and pace? CEO Anne Dooley has been a director with the firm since 1997. She shares some of the progress they have made and factors that helped them grow. You’ll hear about problems in setting up data centres, the timelines demanded by clients, and what to do when problems arise.
Anne also reflects on the importance of teams and how Winthrop lay out a path for progression, career development and hands-on mentoring.
Listen below or on your podcast player!
Topics we discussed include:
- How engineering is a portable career
- The challenges of working across an entire project
- Dealing with timelines and demanding clients
- The role of 3D modelling and prefabrication
- How seasoned experience and youthful drive works for them
- Describes the flat structure and Winthrop and the reasoning behind it
- Ways you can stay on top of your game
- How to incorporate sustainability into high performance building design
- Anne’s view on the biggest challenge facing engineering
We deliver everything, the building structure, architecture, the MEP so we can move all the pieces around and be a good deal more nimble.
If the client has an issue, our first reaction is to not to sit down and write a letter. Our first reaction is to say, okay this has happened, we have to deliver it together. Let’s figure out how to make it better.
The ethos of our success, is partnership with our clients in partnership with our team, all delivering together
I love my job, I love my career, I love the delivery of it
Data centres are the next utility. We're not going to put our phones in the bin. We're not going to drive without Google Maps, or drop office software. The cloud requires a utility and that's why data centres exist
Power utilization and efficiency is hugely important and because they're very focused on that, data-centres are designed to be as energy efficient as possible
Anne Dooley has been a director with Winthrop Technologies since 1997 and has helped the company grow from its MEP heritage to its current status as a leading provider of data-centres in Ireland and across Europe. Anne leads 750 staff by example and is a huge believer in mentoring and career progression. This is a key demonstrable part of her company ethos. She has also been credited with Businesswoman of the Year Award and recently was appointed CEO at Winthrop.
Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer.
For your convenience, here is a 90% accurate automated transcript of the podcast.
Dusty Rhodes 0:01
Right now on amplified the engineers general podcast, we're about to meet the CEO of Winthrop engineering. And Dooley
Anne Dooley 0:08
is a physical world that we inhabit. And there's a framework and there's calculations and details that are required, you have to have a knowledge of how things function and how things are delivered under the preciseness about it. But there's also you know, an attitude of mind a curiosity or willingness to learn, as you go past that technical training, you know, when people come as far as as they're learning inside the environment, and they have that technical qualification.
Dusty Rhodes 0:39
Hello, there, my name is Dusty Rhodes, and you're welcome to amplified the engineers journal podcast, where we speak with leading members of our community of creative professionals about how engineers are delivering interesting and sustainable solutions for society. Joining us today is the CEO of a company who since 1995, has gone from being a fairly traditional Irish MEP business, to becoming one of the leading data center developers across Europe, currently working in around nine European countries. And some of the biggest names in the business are counted as their clients. The company employs around 750 people and in 2022, they're expected to turn over to top 1 billion euro. To share some of the secrets of this success. The lady who has been a director of the company since 1997, is with us now. And I'm delighted to welcome to the podcast, the CEO of Winthrop, engineering, and Dooley, and how are you? Great, thanks. Tell me how did you get into this engineering business in the first place.
Anne Dooley 1:35
Um, I chose to do engineering in college in 1984, when I finished school, I grew up in the west of Ireland near tomb coffin, and the family of seven, my dad was farmer, and wasn't a lot else to do. So, you know, school education. I'm number six or seven, three of my older siblings have done engineering and I just lack of imagination tick the same box. And I think if I was to think back, you know, I was reasonably good at maths, I said, well, the pilot probably could do it. But it was more if you think back to life in the 80s, that there was no workload or employment, or it felt like a very grim place. And you felt that if you graduated, you had to travel and engineering was one of those sort of portable degrees, you can go and work anywhere in the world. So that was the thinking,
Dusty Rhodes 2:21
and what would you describe yourself as a kind of a creative person who likes to look at something and solve the problem? Creative,
Anne Dooley 2:31
I think, um, you know, I like to see things done, I like to progress, things are positive, I like to move forward and easily, easily enough bored just so you know, I like doing things delivering, like completing things as a great satisfaction in any job where you're creating something, you know, whether it's a design creative, or you know, engineering, what we do now, you know, delivering a project and there's a real teammate ethos about the teams get bigger, as the projects get larger, we're still a big team, and, you know, whatever level you in the group, you know, bring forward your best talents, I guess the way coaches and teams work, you know, so that's, that's, I think, that's, that's what I find drives me and that's where I get enthusiasm from. Want
Dusty Rhodes 3:09
to ask you a little bit about that, and coaching and teams just a little later. But first, tell me about the company because you specialize in data centers. Now, that's what you do, but you have a very kind of precise speciality, if you like, what is that?
Anne Dooley 3:21
Okay, so I suppose the company was founded by Barry English in 1995. And he set it up as a as an MEP subcontractor. So we would specialize in doing mechanical electrical, work in industrial name, not industrial, many officers. So not domestics, not particularly, you know, not housing. And then we progressed to do a lot of hospital work. And hospital work is a great similarity, because it's very precise. It's a technical delivery, you learn another good discipline there how to work and you know, working around live environments, if we do in hospital extensions, or whatever. And we progress there for them. We got an opportunity in 2015, to work on the data centers with an American client, but they wanted the full delivery, not just the MEP, they wanted the the building delivered as well as the building work. And we had done some in the number in previous number of years, a number of data centers where we have provided the full delivery, MEP CSA, turnkey delivery. Why does that happen? Sometimes, because the data centers, it's very technical delivery, the MEP is the lead side of it. And sometimes that the building and the other work can be somewhat peripheral, depending on the design of the data center. So data centers are by their very nature, it's all about it's all about power and cooling. And and you're providing a premises that can provide consistency and continuity of power and cooling at all times. That's the key. And then the building is designed around. And so the MVP and understanding the MVP is very important. So we had done throughout the 2000s. A number of turnkey data center delivers but got an opportunity with an American client. They were expanding into Europe, they're looking for a partner. They interviewed a few people, a lot of come And he's larger than us. But they, they liked our attitude. And they were coming into Europe to develop them, they needed to move fast, and they wanted a partner that could move with them quickly. And that was us. And we're still working with them to this day, which have been due to all the data center bills in Europe. And then off of that we delivered we delivered strongly, they get some big opportunities, they took us along on their opportunities, and we delivered for them and the data center world is very, very positive environment in that they are projects are tend to be a year to 18 months long, fast delivery, and it is all about delivery. And all of our clients focus because they are looking to the data centers aren't don't exist, you know, that their demand is driven by all of our iPhones, all of our software solution, all the different types of reasons that we all need the cloud and all the rest of it. And we saw during the pandemic, how much the cloud was a necessity to our world. So so there and to develop that out there in their businesses or software companies, or the the end users there, they've got to plan all that out. So they're, they're looking to your to our to the things that demand will be, and they need to have the they need to have certainty of delivery of the physical infrastructure of the data center. And and we have to be focused on that. And things happen, things go wrong, something is late. So what we're really good at is reconfiguring our timelines or our you know, re looking at our program, we scheduling re sequencing. And because we deliver everything, the building structure, architecture, the MVP, we can move all the pieces around super good deal more nimble, it may be stemmed from our background as as on the MVP, but that's that's kind of a you know, an agile in this and the flexibility that we haven't lost. And again, partnering with our clients understanding what their needs are and appreciating their requirements have delivered on time and doing whatever it takes to try the system on that journey. And you know, being creative thinking about different solutions. You know, we're not people to sit down with something, something happened and you know, the client has has a, maybe an issue with the delivery of a piece of equipment they're supplying, you're our first reaction is to sit down and write or letter, our first reaction, say, Okay, this has happened here, we have to deliver it together, let's figure out how to make it better.
Dusty Rhodes 7:09
How big a difference does it make the fact that you are able to oversee everything rather than working only half the project or having to work with several different teams
Anne Dooley 7:18
doing the turnkey delivery. And sometimes we also do the design, which is another piece of it, what it does is it means that you can manage all the pieces and you don't have any resistance if every participant in a in a team or in a project is trying to deliver therapies as best they can in the second lane. And, you know, that's understandable. But you know, if we're sitting above, and we're managing all the pieces, we can redirect and re sequence them. And we you know, to see the better to see the better solution, rather than saying, Well, you know, we're going to carry on and finish the building here. And, you know, we'll just give you access when it suits as far as we're saying, Well, look, we need to deliver here, this is the best sequence of events, and you know, it might not be the most efficient for your little piece, but for the overall piece, it's going to help us deliver. So I think that's what we're good at, and that we try and concentrate on
Dusty Rhodes 8:02
that efficiency kind of translating to speed. So when you're doing a turnkey Data Center, one of the things you pride yourselves on is how fast you can go from Greenfield to delivery, how fast
Anne Dooley 8:14
it depends on the size of the project, I mean, the timelines, timelines, that our clients business needs demand are very strict, and they're very tight. But we're also very sensible, you know, we don't commit to dates that we can deliver on, you know, they're a year to 18 months to deliver the product deliver the size of the project we're delivering is typical. And what we try and do is we try and do detailed schedule of all the activities and all the the the inputs and the outputs. And you know, and clearly show something that can be delivered, what we like to do is to get the right time to get the reliable time. Our clients are not interested in somebody come along and being here on and suggesting really short timelines that they then can't deliver to their end customers, because that's to nobody's benefit.
Dusty Rhodes 8:58
One of the things that really speeds things up that I believe you're quite proud of is prefabrication. What can you tell me about that?
Anne Dooley 9:05
The key developments in the industry over the last number of years will be the use of 3d drawings. Moving on from there to building information modeling, where you're are really detailing out in 3d, the project very, very early on from the very early design stages. So you're picking up all the difficult pieces, picking up all the clashes and all the things that might not work to your team on site don't have to encounter that they can just go to site and build. And the prefabrication piece allows you at a very minimal level, you know doing some basic elements of cyber law to pre prefabricated electric electrical switch rooms and get them completed in a container and all the component elements tested and delivered. And you can have that happening in tandem while you're doing building the building. So you can imagine that you can move that prefabricated piece of kit into position so you're not waiting for the building build And then to start assembling it. And you know, it's always easier to work in a factory environment, if you're doing that kind of technical piece of delivery than any of the working in a greenfield site. And you can't work in Greenfield site until it's been, you know, until it's watertight until it's, you know, dust free and all the rest of it. So you can work in it in a, if you're working in a production environment to get much better delivery.
Dusty Rhodes 10:20
I'm interested in how the company will describe a lot of the projects that you do is mission critical. Now, anybody in engineering will say that everything they do is mission critical. How do you define mission critical,
Anne Dooley 10:30
as well as mission critical, it's what the date is, you know, it describes the data center industry really doesn't mean that it's that it's, it's a critical, it's critical, its core, it's 100% uptime piece of it that's required. I think that's what drives the mission critical. I know, sometimes people consider some, maybe some, you know, medical institutions or Michigan critical because they have to have that under present uptime as well. But we tend to refer to ourselves mainly as you know, turnkey data center infrastructure delivery, that's what we do. And the turnkey nature is a piece that I enjoy, particularly because, you know, we have clients where we've done the design for them. So we have the greenfield site, we've done the design, we've applied for the permit, we've taken on the the subcontractors that we need to deliver the job, we've managed the team, we've delivered it, and we've commissioned it and handed over, and that's a great delivery, you know, it wasn't there before announced the whole thing created the children involved. And but the the industry is very technical, you know, we employ a lot of engineers across, you know, mechanical, electrical civil structure, guys with design experience, guys, the worst one to work in the BIM department, we take on 20 graduates this year, I on a graduate program, we had I think, 12 interns in the summer, you know, engineering, I just And that's, you know, we're happy to take them on happy to take them on either in here in Ireland, and we're working, we're live in a countries in Europe, I happen to be doing a bit of work in Ireland at the moment, but you know, our businesses Dublin based, but we're working throughout Europe, all of our projects are served by our office here, our projects are live in Germany, in Sweden, in Holland, in Warsaw, in Poland, you know, so with lots of opportunities and opportunities to travel to offer people, which I think is interesting.
Dusty Rhodes 12:12
I think one of the things that when Trump is proud of is that there's a mix of very experienced people and young talent who are coming into the company, and there seems to be a real ethos of a kind of a mentorship program within the company. Is that true?
Anne Dooley 12:25
Yes. And we've always been like that we've always taken on a number of graduates always, you know, have a number of people who work with us who joined us after college and stayed with us, but we're always trying to, you know, incorporate and, and add members to our team, you know, I have one with a very senior design engineer here. And I mean, you know, there's, there's no lack of enthusiasm in his ability. And, you know, I'm watching the sharing of knowledge with young graduates as they come through, you know, the interesting isn't, I think, especially when people first come out of college, you know, they're anxious to see what it is they're going to be to do what it is they're going to be expected to deliver. And they like the practicality of this industry. And you know, I feel for ourselves also, it's such a technical environment that we live in a you know, it's a high tech industry, high tech deliverables. And with clients who expect a very, very slick product at the end of it, they expect it to be done and done. Well, you know, they're great clients to work for demanding, but that's what they're expecting from for their, from their partnership with us.
Dusty Rhodes 13:23
One of the things that strikes me about the company is that the company is still owned by the directors. And speaking to you even though you've got 750 employees, you sound like you know, every single one of them do you think kind of kind of owning the company connects you better with the people who are working with you.
Anne Dooley 13:43
You know, I think I've grown with the company, you know, we all have grown with the company has grown significantly stronger in the last number of years. But uh, you know, we don't like the, the ethos of our, you know, in partnership with our clients in partnership with our, with our, with our team and our colleagues here, you know, we delivered together for myself, I think the team ethos of success is the is the key support for Winthrop that I see, you know, it's our foundation and delivering together and, you know, vicissitudes arrived in whatever form in the course of delivery of a project but you know, rising above them, dealing with them dealing with them positively, you know, openness to engage learning new things knowing that you don't always know all the answers yourself but when your colleagues might that kind of a kind of learning that kind of partnership is something that I think we always tried to promote and you know, we feel that bringing in younger new graduates you know, people are a source we add some joy in there a couple of weeks ago and look, you can see the keenness and the interest they have and the projects are large, they're exciting to work on. And you know, you have your piece in them. And I started up my own career that way working on a small piece of a large project but you know, you got to deliver that piece and then you then you then you get you get the confidence and and you get the experience and you get the exposure to these large projects.
Dusty Rhodes 15:00
learning new things and just constantly learning about what's going on around you is, is great. But at the same time, if you don't know something, and there's somebody above you, and you don't want to look stupid, I'm a great believer in the in the phrase, there's no such thing as a stupid question. How do you feel that because you're at the top of the tree in the company, would you prefer people to ask those kind of questions? Or would you prefer to them to do something else?
Anne Dooley 15:26
Well, I suppose first of all, I'm not at the top of any tree, because we're very flat structure, I like that we don't have that kind of atmosphere or feeling within the company. Obviously, the projects have a management team and there was obviously people in charge and managers in the different levels. And I got asked one day, who's the most important person and you know, if you're looking for a project team was most important on any given day, it's, it's, you know, it's different people, it's safety officers are vitally important, vitally important, making sure that people go go to work safe and come home safe, and I help the teams deliver a safe project, make sure that the safety training is in calculated, and all the troops that were that arrive on to the site, on another day, you know, it's the mechanical engineer, or the civil structural engineer or whatever, you know, it very, so everybody's got everybody's important in their own day. QoS is conscious of doing our our back office here is if you don't have administration, if you don't have finance, nobody gets paid, and nobody pays you then you've got also have your purchasing team, you know, putting the putting the purchase order out there ordering equipment, ordering materials. So, you know, everybody has their, their part to play. And the question you asked me was, yeah, you know, I completely, completely encouraged that, um, you know, there's always new things to be learned, it's, you know, we have a number of different clients, and they were building data centers, delivering data centers for them, every client has different needs, different work, different requirements. So start off with an open and engagement. And, you know, you know, three letter acronyms are the bane of every industry. So, you know, when you come along with a new client, they'll have a different one that you haven't heard of, ask the question, you know, be prepared to look a bit, you know, not be prepared to ask question I didn't honestly Oh, okay. And that's really obvious. And, you know, I think that, you know, if you don't have that in an organization, you have nothing, you have to have that piece where people are prepared to, you know, admit to what they don't know, go and researchers and come back. The answers won't always be, you know, as easily as that easily found as that but you know, have the interest to go. And besides the
Dusty Rhodes 17:24
speaking of three letter acronym, CPT is very important in any organization, do you have any kind of a path for continuous professional development?
Anne Dooley 17:32
We certainly do we have, we have a, we have a subcommittee here who have supported it, right through the business over the last number of years. And, yeah, and continuing to do so. And we use our CPD team as well, to help with a lot when we were designing our recent graduate recruitment program, we were formalizing that into a two year program and the CPD team were, you know, they were very instrumental in helping us share the areas there. And we've obviously gotten a lot of advice in that from EI over the years.
Dusty Rhodes 17:58
Learning and recognition is also very important part of your career development. And you have won Businesswoman of the Year. How did that chair? Why did you get involved in that?
Unknown Speaker 18:11
Why did I get involved in that? Ah, mature I am
Dusty Rhodes 18:15
was one of those things where somebody entered you, and you just had to go for it? Yeah, I
Anne Dooley 18:19
mean, you know, the, the diversity agenda in the industry is high, you know, if there could be a bias towards hiring women engineers, there would be there's a bias towards hiring engineers full stop, it's trying to find enough of them. You know, I still don't see a lot of women coming through. And I don't think, you know, at the employer level, I think the difficulty is filing finding talent for stuff from wherever it comes. I think, you know, we do support AI, particularly do a lot of work at the schools at the lower level to try and encourage people into it, you know, it's certainly from an employer perspective, I think thing for us is to is to show the attractiveness of the industry in the data center industry in terms of the end to end construction of the data center, and then on from there from the operation and the and the support structure, they have to feel that there is a continuity and that it's a you know, it's a great industry to work in. You know, I love my job, I love my career, I love the delivery of it. I like being part of that that kind of positive program and it's constantly as well, if you're at the stage where you're you're involved in particular projects, you know, it's new teams every year 18 months because the project completed you move on different not necessarily a full new team, but you're getting to know new people and it's very multicultural, which is again another even in Ireland and especially as we work throughout Europe, you know, working alongside different people, you learn different things, not just in your work, but just generally you know, you it's good, I think it's good, good all around good for people the education and for instance interest.
Dusty Rhodes 19:45
I'm guessing you have had a good experience with engineers Ireland, can you tell me just one of the useful things that engineers Ireland has done for you personally?
Anne Dooley 19:55
For me, personally, I think there's there's a there's a recognition In for the role of the engineer, an engineer Ireland, you know, gives that a give that a star, his understanding, you know, as a professional engineer is a title that is used a lot. And I think engineers Ireland have have really focused on trying to develop that out and and I know, a number of years ago but I would have felt they were very focused on the more they civil structural on the that side of the world, but I think they've they've broadened out their communication so that, you know, it's across the full spectrum, you know, including including on the IT side, because that's a huge draw for the engineers the future. And, you know, I think we want to get people into our side of the industry, but we, you know, we want to draw, attract people in and I think engineers, Ireland do a superb job on that.
Dusty Rhodes 20:42
Let me ask you, kind of going back to the day to day business of the of the company back to data centers, because one of the problems with data centers is they get a bad rap, especially, you know, what Sustainability and Environment? How are you thinking about that problem? Now, how do you how do you counter that?
Anne Dooley 20:58
Well, I suppose there that the way we see them is that they're the next utility, you know, so we're not going to put our phones in the bin, you know, we're not, you know, we're not going to start to drive them without Google Maps, you know, or whatever product you want to use, you know, all of that software as a service, we all have, you know, companies are operating Microsoft 365, and the clouds, all of those things, you know, lots of different deliveries, they all require a utility to show them that that's why the data centers exist. And then I mean, they're designed to be very efficient, because the main cost to the operator is the use of power. So they've got a P OE power usage, power utilization, efficiency, calculation. And that's very important in the industry, because they're very focused on that, because they're so that they're, they're designed to be as, as energy efficient as possible, for sure. They are new infrastructure. So for sure that they're not, they're not neutral on the environment. But it's a positive industry, with a lot of progressive end user clients who are focused on buying where they can and buying forward and renewable power, which is helping that side of the industry, and also a lot of focus now on, you know, trying to get at the circular economy in terms of the carbon, the amount of carbon that's in the industry, and a lot of analysis now is happening on that to see how we can reduce that as a bill forward. So I think, you know, as an industry, it's a very developed industry, and it's very conscious of its sustainability demands. And, again, I see the workforces of the future, you know, they want to see that develop, and that aspiration within us as a company and within our clients, they can see that they can see that focus on the sustainability piece.
Dusty Rhodes 22:36
It's a very fast moving industry, and things do change. And like you guys have been on things early, you're one of the first to get into Bi M. Yeah. Where do you kind of how do you keep yourself on top of what's happening within your industry now,
Anne Dooley 22:50
you know, we've got a lot of great talent within the company, spread across Ireland and Europe. And we've got a lot of really good talent, you know, we're not, we're not, we're a Dublin based company, but we're not by no means exclusively Irish is our staff. So a lot of really good, qualified, experienced engineers, conscious of areas coming into the company, project managers, bringing with them their knowledge and their experience, and, you know, we're happy to invest, we're happy to develop those, those skills and, and share them across the company. And, you know, we're very well, we're very good as if we, you know, for on a particular project, and so Sweden or something, and we and we develop something up there that helps the work, you know, a process or safety procedure, then we'll make sure that we rolled it out across all the companies so that we have a similar delivery, and we have a consistent delivery for all of our clients plus all of our projects,
Dusty Rhodes 23:44
a lot of the projects you are involved in, I mean, it would be fair to describe it as high performance building design, really? How do you make sustainability a part of that high performance?
Anne Dooley 23:55
Well, I think there's a lot of measures that are coming in to the, you know, sustainability starts back up a bit design starts back at the location of the of the of the projects, we don't, we're not always responsible for the design, very often our clients will design the buildings, and then we work with them from there, but I think sustainability is is embedded in all of our, all of our clients, briefs to their design teams, you know, whether we're on the design team or not, when we look at when we look at the design, when we look at how we're going to develop it, you know, we're looking at the the most sustainable solution and the most energy efficient solution on the project because the clients are interested in the power usage, because that's the most expensive part of them and, you know, the demands there. So they want to be that to be used as efficiently as possible. And as I said, also, there's a lot of a lot of new knowledge coming into the industry a lot, a lot of assessments, and a lot of focus on you know, managing your carbon footprint or your embedded carbon throughout the life of the project to see if you can try and reduce that
Dusty Rhodes 24:59
we The world is changing a lot as we go into the mid 20s. We've war, the supply issues, power of the cost of economic turndown is the topic of the day. Just from your point of view, what's the biggest challenge that's facing engineering?
Anne Dooley 25:15
Well, I suppose we're a people business, you know, what we do is it's a service industry. So for what we're doing, so we're, we're a management team, from project managers, projects, project managers, right down to the supervisory level within the company. And so it's all for us, it's, it's, it's developing the talent and attracting the talent and making sure we have the best so we can deliver the best or at all times, you know, so, you know, the the second type of colleagues that we look for, that's going to be that, you know, you have to have that positive mindset for delivery, client focused, you know, no matter what level you're coming in, and you know, that the the, the engineering graduates for sure, have to have the qualifications. And the technical qualification is very important. But then after that, it's attitude. And, you know, attitude goes an awful long way, in any business, as you know, and, you know, the support teams that we build around the engineers and the construction teams, but again, you know, a positive supportive environment. And that's, that's what we try to develop.
Dusty Rhodes 26:11
And when you talk about attracting talent, what kind of things do you do to attract
Anne Dooley 26:17
I suppose we're very quiet as a company, we don't do much advertising. So, you know, I'm trying to talk to you here today is trying to reach out to the potential graduates of the future to look to consider our area of operations as as a possible graduate career because we can offer them a golden past and longevity of a career, consistent growth, offer some travel if they want to do that, or indeed, but also training and mentorship.
Dusty Rhodes 26:49
Duly it's been an absolute pleasure. And thank you for taking the time to join us on the podcast today. Thank you. If you'd like to find out more about what we spoke about on the podcast today, you'll find the show notes and link details in the description area of your podcast player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and advanced episodes on our website at engineers ireland.ie. Our amplified podcast today was produced by dustpod.io for engineers journal. If you'd like more episodes, do click the Follow button on your podcast player so you get access to all our past and future shows automatically. Well, the next time for myself just thrilled. Thank you for listening