Looking Up and Looking Out
As the engineering sector continuously evolves and grows, how can you stay on top and progress in your career?
Today we discover how leading managers achieved their ascent in the industry and what key qualities they look for in their teams. We also hear how employee wellbeing is crucial to operating a safe workplace.
Joining us to tell us more is Director of TII’s Professional Services Division, Helen Hughes and Director of Operations with Jacobs, Jillian Bolton.
Listen below or on your podcast player!
Things we spoke about
1:21 Finding your chosen discipline
3:31 How engineering has evolved
6:20 5G in cars of the new future
7:57 Work/Life Balance
10:33 How safety to changing on site
13:40 The qualities required to move up the ladder
17:00 The importance of being visible
19:49 Moving into management
24:21 Continuous learning - exhausting or exciting?
Helen was appointed Director of TII’s Professional Services Division in 2015 following the establishment of Transport Infrastructure Ireland. Helen has over 30 years of experience in transport planning, project appraisal and project management and has worked in the UK, Ireland and France in the public and private sectors. Helen has been a member of TII’s Executive Team for 7 years, has 18 years’ experience with NRA and 10 years with Consulting Engineers. She has experience in delivery of capital projects, development of strategies, policies, technical reports, road design standards, specifications, and research.
She is a Chartered Engineer and holds a Bachelor of Civil Engineering degree and a Diploma in Project Management. She has been a Council Member of Engineers Ireland and Chairperson of WITS, a voluntary organisation supporting women in science, technology, engineering and mathematics.
Jillian Bolton is a Chartered Civil Engineer with 20 years’ experience in the engineering industry, predominantly supporting capital infrastructure clients in the development and construction of national infrastructure. As Regional Lead for Water Ireland & Scotland, Jillian is responsible for the continued development and growth of the region, supporting and developing an extensive team of engineering professionals within the water infrastructure sector delivering on capital investment frameworks and projects for our clients.
Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/
Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.
When you start in engineering, you realize how many different disciplines there are, but they also have many different types of roles within all of those disciplines. - Jillian
The thing that's very rewarding is that you can see very visibly the difference you make. You're delivering infrastructure for the people of Ireland, so I think that's quite gratifying. Jillian mentioned the major inter urban road network that we delivered in the naughties. And that's a huge legacy for generations to come. So the love of engineering is directly related to the impact you're making, for me. - Helen
It's the always-on culture. People are now saying that they're going to leave their mobile phones off for six hours or 12 hours to switch off. We shouldn't be always-on, we never were in the past. - Helen
I would say making sure that you're looking up, and you're looking out. It's saying yes to other things that may not be just purely in the engineering fixed fields that you're in. But it's also looking up from what you're doing at the moment. You've got to be aware of what else is going on within your organization or within your sector and even within the wider infrastructure sector - Jillian
For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription
Jillian Bolton, Dusty Rhodes, Helen Hughes
Dusty Rhodes 00:00
Right now on Amplified, the Engineers Journal Podcast. We're about to talk career progression. Somebody with
Jillian Bolton 00:06
an inquisitive mindset and somebody that wants to find solutions. I
Helen Hughes 00:09
totally agree about problem solving. If there were no problems, none of us would have any job.
Jillian Bolton 00:14
It's about finding your way through the problems and being able to identify solutions for a problem that gives the best benefits
Helen Hughes 00:20
openness to new learnings and enthusiasm for new learning.
Dusty Rhodes 00:25
Hello there, my name is Dusty Rhodes. Welcome to amplified the engineers journal podcast. As the old song says, The only way is up but many people in engineering can struggle to make that next step getting up the ladder. However, one of the great things about engineering is that there is unlimited opportunity for learning and development. And there is lots to be learned from those who've come before. So today, we're with two people who we hope will inspire us to reach for the next rung. First off joining us, we have the Director of Professional Services with ti who has over 30 years of experience in transport planning, project appraisal and project management. Helen Hughes, thank you very much for joining us today.
Helen Hughes 01:06
Good morning, dusty.
Dusty Rhodes 01:07
And we're also chatting with the director of operations with Jacobs, who brings 20 years of engineering experience predominantly in the development and construction of national infrastructure. Jillian Bolton, you're very welcome as well.
Jillian Bolton 01:20
Thank you. Dusty.
Dusty Rhodes 01:21
So Helen, tell us how did you first get involved in engineering?
Helen Hughes 01:25
And well, obviously, I studied engineering, I actually went to UCD. And then, where I was very interested in water and wastewater at the time, but I graduated in the late 80s, and went directly to England. And my first project was on a motorway construction site. So since then, I've never actually worked in anything with transport, both from construction, design, delivery, all the way through in all the phases of these projects.
Dusty Rhodes 01:54
And Julian, how about yourself? How did you get how did you get into this business?
Jillian Bolton 01:58
Well, interesting. Lee, I was also when I finished university, I was also mostly interested in water and wastewater sector. But originally, I also went into the transportation side. So I worked on some of the major inter urban highways in Ireland for maybe the first sort of eight or nine years, and then with the establishment of the water utility in Ireland, maybe about 10 years ago, and then spent nearly the last 10 years there as well.
Dusty Rhodes 02:26
And it's, it's a kind of a thing with, with both of you, where you kind of got into the engineering first. And it was only after you got involved that you found your your love,
Helen Hughes 02:34
and love, love engineering. That's a strong word. But I think the thing that's very rewarding is that you can see very visibly the difference you make. So you've got something tangible at the end of it. And, you know, you're delivering infrastructure for the people of Ireland, really, and it's quite gratifying. And that's a huge legacy for generations to come. You know, by the way, we'll be driving on electric or automated vehicles, or a railway line, you know, it's an infrastructure, they're, like the railways of the Victorian era. So the love is directly related to that the impact you're making,
Jillian Bolton 03:14
I was just gonna say, like, there's a, there's a real you can see a real people have real passion, about about, not necessarily about like, the engineering, technical details, but it's about the delivery of something that is, is valuable and worthwhile and can make a difference to people's lives.
Dusty Rhodes 03:31
Helen, can I ask you kind of like looking back over the last, whatever, 1015 years or so how do you think engineering as a profession has evolved?
Helen Hughes 03:40
In the last 1015 years? I think it's definitely engineers now are working as part of a multidisciplinary team, which is very, you know, it's very interesting, and it really helps your engineering skills.
Jillian Bolton 03:54
Well, I would agree, first of all Italian, originally, kind of engineering was in isolation. But now all of their projects are delivered by each of those sort of elements coming together in order to successfully deliver the project, it can't be done on its own. But the real shift, I think, in the last maybe five plus years is around well, in what you mentioned, during sustainability, and also the digital piece, you know, that those, those are, how we're going to sort of, well, I mean, society is moving along in that in that regard and these expectations around sustainability, and there's, there's regulatory requirements in terms of meeting carbon targets, but also the pace of digital is just unbelievable. So, you know, as an engineering industry, we have to try to also keep up with that.
Dusty Rhodes 04:38
So how do you see that Julian kind of like, if you were to look like, let's just say five years into the into the future, or even say 2030 Whatever we really think it's gonna be or what did he do you think it'll be a fundamental change?
Jillian Bolton 04:49
Well, I hope that all of the projects that we are working towards delivering and programs of work that they're that sustainability and carbon management is a is Driver as opposed to being an add on or as a as something else just to do that, you know, energy efficiency reduction and carbon catchment management type approaches or systems management types approaches where it all needs to come together to make a really effective solutions and to make really positive shifts for society going forward. So I think hopefully, in that, in that timeframe, we are looking at our programs and working our projects from a from a whole system's approach rather than in isolation.
Helen Hughes 05:31
Just on that whole aspect. For example, now transportation is very linked in with the whole energy sector, as we go to electrify our fleets. But it's also linked into the communication networks because because we will need to link into 5g networks to communicate between vehicles as part of this connected world. So So now you're interfacing with communications, electrification, and transport transport before was just transport. That interdisciplinary nature is fascinating. And I always remember, as a student, we talked about engineering, harnessing the great forces of nature, and that whole area of resources and using use of resources and efficient use of resources. This is another key aspect of the work we're doing.
Dusty Rhodes 06:20
Can I ask you, Helen, because you mentioned electric vehicles, and I think everybody's kind of thinking, well, we're definitely going electric vehicles. xiyue kind of everything. Well, you said 5g as well. I know internet is important. And I would imagine at a national level, and when you're talking, you're kind of taking trains and planes and buses and those kinds of things. Do you think 5g is going to make its way into our cars?
Helen Hughes 06:43
I do. All cars will be connected to the internet, I think all cars at the moment on production will be so instead of us putting up variable message signs on our on the motorway network, you're going to get messages into your car sending a roadworks ahead in three kilometers. Beware, instead of putting up with these hard gantries, you're going to be told there is a accident 10 kilometers ahead, maybe we want to divert to another route. So that whole and messaging information will be a key part of how we travel in the future.
Dusty Rhodes 07:22
And it's quite I mean, it's we haven't today on our on a mobile phone. So if you've got Google Maps or something like that, are you linking in with Apple CarPlay or Android, auto or whatever, it will tell you that there's a problem overhead. And what I find amazing is that it will tell you that it's going to cause you a seven and a half minute delay. And it can be quite accurate. Sometimes it's quite scary, but you think that that is going to actually built into the motor vehicle itself into the dash
Helen Hughes 07:49
is wherever you can get your onboard unit should be part of this standard dashboard. So you won't be hopefully won't be distracted looking at your phone.
Dusty Rhodes 07:57
This is I want to chat with you both about careers. But before we kind of get onto that on our last episode of the podcast, it was a very big emphasis on the importance of safety in engineering. And I just want to have a quick chat with both of you about that. Julian, the well being of employees. I mean, it's hugely important, and it's very high, it can be a very high pressure and fast moving industry. What do you feel the industry is getting right and wrong with well being?
Jillian Bolton 08:24
I think there's a lot of change. You can see you can see in the industry, I think I don't know how long if you agree. You can see a lot more talk and a lot more initiatives and a lot more consideration around things like we call them Mental Health First Aiders, but there's other there's other terminologies and organizations about so it's not just again about the when you're actually on your you're on a bill on a construction site. It's about exactly I think so. I do think that's really encouraging to see, I think that you know, I think that people are more considerate of their own work life balance and their own expectations and their own needs around what they want from their career and what they want from their employer. So that obviously hasn't hasn't benefit from a wellbeing perspective as well and needs to be we need to be mindful of that you know, that people work is not everything, you know, that there's there's a lot more to people's lives now.
Dusty Rhodes 09:25
Helen, do you think that when you're looking at it from a managerial point of view that when you take a person's work life balance on their wellness and safety and kind of look at it all together that you're getting more out of people
Helen Hughes 09:36
like to see it as part of good management like this work life balance. So what initiatives can you help do to help work life balance so we have a policy for digital switch off so that you don't send emails after six o'clock? Only if it's urgent, so people need to be able to switch off I think, now that we're working in a more blended way even more so. We have to be able to say okay, this is so switch off at a certain time and not be always on. And I think that's, it's always on culture. Even talking to people now people are saying they're going to leave their mobile phones or for, you know, six hours, 12 hours. So this switch off, we're not we shouldn't be always on, we never were in the past. I think that's, that's huge. And generally we, we look at sickly statistics, check that they're sort of in sort of in line with what's normal and certified. So you know, how many people we have employee assistance programs, how many people are benefiting that, because there has been a, you know, a rise in anxiety since COVID. So, we monitor those things we can measure, we monitor, and then we can do sort of employee engagement, or check ins, very, very often. So to try and really cool also safety culture in the organization. But I'm also in charge of road safety, construction, safety, light rail safety, and occupational safety. So safety is a core part of my job.
Dusty Rhodes 11:06
And when you are looking at out there in the workers, we're talking a lot about office space stuff. But when you're on site, what what ways are safety changing what's what's the concern in your head?
Helen Hughes 11:16
Well, I think the good things that happened when I worked in a construction site in the UK, and my site and duction was honest, the resident engineer said to me on the site this size, it's going to be two fatalities. That's the statistical norm. And what he should have said to me is on a site this god size, statistically, there may be two, but on this site, there's going to be zero. So it's that fatalism that that's just the way it was, so that that's a positive change. That no, this is not acceptable. So the zero tolerance has, it's not just a nice thing to say, it's definitely happening. It's also happening for insurance reasons, as contractors do not want to have, you know, large any fatalities or serious injuries on their construction sites, a lot of motivators for that, as well as, obviously, the the demiral. The amount, there's, there's, there's financial and economic considerations, too. So huge change, I'd say we never get complacent, the whole area of monitoring and data and saying, How are we doing, like we report every month, to our board on safety, and we need good quality information. Julian, you look
Dusty Rhodes 12:34
slightly shocked. And I am as well, when you say, when you look at a site, and there's gonna be x amount of deaths. Well, what's going through your head about what Helen is saying?
Jillian Bolton 12:42
I mean, it is a fact on it. And it's really, as you say, Helen, it's incredible to think that that's not acceptable anymore. And it's and that and it isn't, you know, and I think that some of what we're talking there about well being it's also about somebody mentioned it like psychological safety that, you know, when we have people on sites that they are, they feel comfortable to say, I don't feel like this is a safe environment, or I don't feel like this is safe behavior. And whether or not they're wrong, it shouldn't matter. You know, if it doesn't, and they should feel confident that will stand behind them. And we'll say that's fine. You didn't feel safe in that environment. And you were right to call it out, right to get it checked, right to have people to take a step back. That's a big thing we talked about, take a step back, have a think about it again, make sure you're comfortable, and then see see how we can go ahead. And again, I
Helen Hughes 13:31
forgot to mention in this act on that site, there were two fatalities. So it was selling prophecies. So these are a lot better now. Thank goodness.
Dusty Rhodes 13:40
Well, thankfully, we're not the days I remember when I was visiting New York and the Empire State Building, and it said there was one fatality per floor. Anyway, listen, let's move away from that and chat about kind of moving up the ladder as it were. Because I mean, you both have a great perspective from from a management role. And that's kind of what I wanted to tap into on the on the podcast today. And somebody who's kind of listening kind of want to move up, or how do I do it? Or what's the best way? Or what are shortcuts or one of the, you know, kinds of proven techniques is those kinds of things I want to find out about, I kind of started with your self, Julian, what advice would you have for someone who wants to move up the ladder in engineering?
Jillian Bolton 14:18
Yeah, I would, I would say, making sure that you're looking up and you're looking out, and also saying, making sure that you're are saying yes to to being asked to do various different things that may not, as far as you're concerned, be solely related to the role that you're doing now. So, you know, engineering, like Helen was saying earlier, it's there's so many different disciplines. Now there's so many different aspects and it's not just purely doing the design that's in front of you on or on the computer, I suppose more to the point now, from from my perspective in the industry, you know, there's work on tendering and getting new work and engaging with clients and, and then there's all the whole people management side, like we still need to run all of that people perspective. And it's. And it's not just in isolation of a project. So I would say it's saying yes to other things that may not be just purely in the little engineering phase fixed fields that you're in. But it's also looking up from what you're doing at the moment. That's what I would always say you've got to know not not to know, but you've got to keep be aware of what else is going on within your organization or within your sector, and even within the wider infrastructure, infrastructure sector.
Dusty Rhodes 15:36
Helen, what advice would you have for somebody wanting to move up?
Helen Hughes 15:39
Well, I'd echo Julian's advice about volunteering, being open to learning. And really that links in with, you know, CPD that engineers Ireland encourages. So we're moving beyond competence, that's just taken as a given. So then the other area is very much networking, you have to network with people in your field and outside your field, to learn, and you know, that they that you always learn from networking, and unconsciously network. And you can use engineers, Ireland, for different conferences. Networking is key visibility, you need to be visible, it's not good enough in really good at your job and expecting somebody to tap on your shoulder and say, Yeah, this is the job for you. So you take a proactive approach to your career development, and not waiting for somebody to suggest something to you in that area, then you need to eventually say, well, I need to learn some of the softer skills, too, if you want to go up we and I about 10 years ago, I did training from technical experts to leadership. So a lot of that engineers do that transition to being technical, competent, and now they want to be competent in management. So that's a huge area as well.
Dusty Rhodes 17:00
So when you're saying, you can't wait for somebody to tap you on the shoulder, you've got to go out and get it. So that's kind of like you're almost you're almost need to advertise, I want to move on in the career, I want to go places I want to do better than where I am now. But a lot of people would feel that seems very egotistical of me, or people will look at me and they go, oh, man, look at look, look at your man or your woman and big head on her and you know, kind of all that kind of stuff. How do you do it in a sensible way? Helen?
Helen Hughes 17:30
Well, you don't want to be a pain in the neck either. Exactly. Balance between? Well, volunteering, I think, as Julian said, you know, do give a talk, if there's they're looking for lunchtime talks in your organization. For for younger engineers have volunteered to do things. So write a paper, do an article for you know, to put in your head, I had a exalts thing for a committee in work, you know, whether it's the health and safety committee or the the pyramid committee, whatever committee just just get out of your comfort zone. Julian,
Jillian Bolton 18:12
it's about being visible. It's not that you have to say I want to be this or I want to be last but equally, it might be somebody saying, Oh, I really need help, urgently. What's with such and such a thing that's maybe not quite day to day day job. Yeah, I'll help i No problem. And then you're, you, you become more seen within your organization, you become seen within your within your team. And when other when opportunities come through to your managers or to senior people within the within your, your organization, they'll think, oh, Helen was really helpful. And she was really, she put herself up, but she put herself out there. And I'd really like to give her this opportunity. So that that way, for people that maybe aren't quite so outspoken or maybe aren't quite so comfortable pushing themselves up. That's also a way but it still comes back to the part of, you've got to put your head up and you've got to be visible.
Helen Hughes 19:02
Another was showing up. And actually, at any opportunity of a meeting or something. Be somebody who Yeah, recognizes problems, but offer solutions. And I think that's really important that you always are suggesting things, looking at innovative ways of doing things. So really showing up
Jillian Bolton 19:22
even if it's wrong, you know, like, if someone comes to you and says, I have this problem, but I think this might be the answer. That is so much better that someone that just comes in says I have a problem. You think right, well come up with something, even if it's not the right answer, you know, you can help. Yeah, exactly. They've tried and it might just be that they haven't hit on the right thing, or they haven't the right experience to have to come up with the right answer, but at least they've tried and you will recognize that recognizable and valued.
Dusty Rhodes 19:49
What I love about what you are both saying is that you're not just giving this advice to people. This is stuff that's happened to you and this is stuff that you've done, and the proof is there. I mean, you're both doing very well. You in your career, and for myself, networking was always a mystery to me. What is networking? How do you do it? And then eventually I twigged? It's, as you say, it's showing up and meeting somebody. Hello, how are you? Yeah, I'm Dusty. And you are. Networking is people you've met. And it's as simple as that. You don't have to be friends or you don't have to be, you know, sucking up to them all the time or whatever. It's literally just somebody you've met. And as you said, Julian, them when they're looking for somebody, the goal was then what was the name of that fella that we met or whatever, like, you know, so, but then away from the networking and kind of the advice that you have for people moving up the ladder? What about the actual path? Going into management? What does that look like?
Jillian Bolton 20:43
So I'm originally a civil engineer. And so I kind of moved from, I guess, a purely technical civil engineering approach into kind of contract documents, and then into project management, then some of the some of the sort of softer skills that Helen mentioned, and that sort of managerial skills around people in management and, you know, engagement around progressing, the progressing our business and growth of our business sort of, was more visible to me and more available to me, and I took those opportunities to go on to them. So that's how it worked for me. I mean, I don't know, it depends, you know, you've got kind of, we would also have very senior heads of discipline, you know, who would still be very technical people, but that would be equally a managerial role. But my role is more operational. And I, you know, I manage our team, I support them from a people perspective, but I also support them from a delivery of projects and programs from a, like a project director or an oversight role, as well. And I'm responsible for that, you know, for the delivery and the growth of those, those programs of work. So that's how that's, that's, that was my route. But I think there's probably lots of different ones. And, and it will be different, depending on people's preferential skill set, or their, you know, their what they do really well. So obviously, people that go into more of a head of discipline, managerial role are obviously quite knowledgeable technical experts.
Dusty Rhodes 22:16
Does that sound familiar to you, Helen? Or did you have a different path progressing into management?
Helen Hughes 22:22
It's a very gradual process. So it normally starts with having one or two people reporting to you. And then you learning people management skills gradually, and, and then eventually, then if you've a larger team of six people reporting to me, then you, you hone that skill, and you learn how to get the best out of people and how to understand their different perspectives and managing different personalities.
Dusty Rhodes 22:47
When you say it's a gradual process. It makes it sound like it's very long. I mean, how long does it take to get into mode? Are you a dog in like, a year, two years, five years, 10 years?
Jillian Bolton 22:58
I don't think people necessarily go, you know, people start in our sector as engineers, and that's what they want to do. It's what I think it's a good point, like, you might as well hold on, like, we're still originally engineers. And not all engineers will make good people managers. So you've got it.
Helen Hughes 23:17
I'm managing archaeologists and environmental scientists, people who are editing, you aren't engineers. So it's being hired to manage people that are beyond not in your area of specialty is a key skill. That doesn't matter that I know, people about archaeology, although I'm learning a lot, I can manage the archaeology team because i Manager, even though it's like expertise are good.
Jillian Bolton 23:41
That's an like, projects have so many range of disciplines in design as a project manager, or as a manager, you can't understand all of them, but you need to just be able to know how to get the best out of the people on your team.
Helen Hughes 23:53
And just to know how much that you need to know. So that we have, you know, in any need to core core core information, you don't need to go into the weeds. So it's keeping that a high level overview, but not losing the important facts, which is, as he get more and more I used to remember when a famous politician saying I just want an a4 sheet of you know, briefed and I understand that more and more as a result.
Dusty Rhodes 24:21
We all get into engineering for our own various, you know, reasons for getting into engineering, but then when you're moving into management, it's almost like a completely different skill. What kind of have learning is there for people who want to develop their career and go into management?
Helen Hughes 24:37
Well, there's lots of courses out there, you know, I would suggest, you know, doing to sort of diplomas whether it's in project management, or management or leadership, so it's a lot of different courses available and, and I've been lucky enough to do several leadership training courses, which have really helped me develop That's, and we've done it and you learn so much from the other people that you're doing the courses with, and that they're really vital.
Dusty Rhodes 25:08
What would you say is one of the most valuable things that you learned?
Helen Hughes 25:13
Dusty Rhodes 25:16
In what sense? Explain that to me.
Helen Hughes 25:18
You just knowing your strengths and weaknesses, and yeah, what areas you need to work on in your own personal personal development, because that has a huge impact on the people around you very important,
Jillian Bolton 25:28
really important actually, to know what you're good at and what or when you need to let other people step in.
Dusty Rhodes 25:34
Julian there seems to be a constant need and a certainly a constant drive for learning and progressing and getting new skills and stuff. Do you find that constant need for learning exhausting?
Jillian Bolton 25:46
Well, no, I'm exhausted. But that could be loads of other things. Know, because, because it's exciting. You know, like, we talked about earlier on about how disciplines are changing, you know, that the sector is changing with all that. What was really interesting with Alan was saying, buy cars having 5g, I never would have even thought of that. But that whole digital piece is moving so quickly. But it comes back to the point about knowing your own skill set. And so there are people that will be really knowledgeable and educated and expert in those areas, and whose skill set maybe is more aligned as the sort of newer disciplines come on board, or more aligned to lining with them. But to the point that Alan was making as a manager, as a project manager, it's your job to get the best out of those people. And that's a different skill in terms of understanding how to get the best out of them. So it's, it's it's a yeah, that, that leadership is, is a constant learning. And I find a lot of it is learning as you're learning as you're doing. And as you're having more visibility in different parts of your own organization, like Colin was talking about being on the executive board, and I, but when I move into different levels, you know, you can, you can see, and you can get a little intimidated at first and think, oh, right, while I'm a long way from there, but that's fine, because you have just moved into that area, and you need to listen and learn to see how everybody else behaves doesn't mean you need to behave as they do. But understand what take what you need from that to develop your own skill set and move it on. But it's exciting to see like there's so much to go, I
Helen Hughes 27:26
just it's definitely not exhausting, because of the the opposite would be true, you'd be exhausted. And you'd be so bored. So a lifelong learning is part of life for everybody. And even when I'm retired and like you can't, but openness to to new learning is key.
Dusty Rhodes 27:45
Well, let's leave it there for today. Helen Hughes and Gillian Bolton, thank you so much for joining us on our podcast. Thank you.
Helen Hughes 27:52
Thank you very much.
Dusty Rhodes 27:55
If you'd like to find out more about Helen and Jillian and some of the topics that we spoke about today, you'll find notes and link details in the show notes area on your player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and exclusive advanced episodes of our Engineers Ireland Amplified podcast on our website at engineersireland.ie. Our podcast today was produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland. If you'd like more episodes, do click the Follow button on your podcast player to get access to all our past and future shows automatically. Until next time from myself Dusty Rhodes. Thank you for listening