Irish engineers are incredibly creative thinkers and innovators, but it's a big leap going from innovator to entrepreneur, and taking an idea you might have to market.

Today we hear from a prominent engineer with a fascinating career history, which took her from aeronautical engineering into the biomedical space. We'll be finding out how she looks at problems, overcomes obstacles, where she sees innovation and opportunity, and getting some great advice for any engineers who are thinking of launching their own business.

Our guest is CEO of Altratech and the Assistant Director of the Stokes Research Institute at University of Limerick, Dr. Tara Dalton.

THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

• Transitioning through different disciplines of engineering
• The benefits of working within interdisciplinary teams
• Learning to ‘skate where the puck is’
• Being aware of trends and spotting gaps in the market
• Striving for progress over perfection and asking for help

 

GUEST DETAILS
Dr Tara Dalton, CEO of Altratech and Assistant Director of the Stokes Research Institute in the Department of Mechanical and Aeronautical Engineering at the University of Limerick.

Dr Dalton is a fellow of the Irish Academy of Engineers. She is one of the founders of Stokes Bio – a spin-out company that was sold to Life Technologies that developed high throughput microfluidic instruments for PCR. Her research interest is in the development of microfluidic devices for biological assays. She has graduated 20 PhD Students, published over 100 refereed papers and has over 50 granted patent and patent applications.

https://altratech.com/

https://ul.ie/research/dr-tara-dalton

 

MORE INFORMATION

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/  

 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

 

QUOTES

In my mind, in engineering, you don't want to be at the cutting edge of absolute new science. You want to be just behind it, so you can help people with that science. - Tara Dalton

 

When you work with interdisciplinary team, and I work with medics, physicists, chemists or even with other entrepreneurs, it's just amazing, because I find that everybody wants to help you be better. Nobody, at least in my experience, gatekeeps their knowledge. - Tara Dalton

 

Skate where the puck is, right. It didn't matter that I had this great product, but to get venture capital funding, that was never going to happen, because it wasn't in that ecosystem at the time. So that was one really big learning lesson. - Tara Dalton

 

Ask for help. Everybody, ask for help. Go talk to people, go talk to Enterprise Ireland, go talk to lawyers, go talk to VCs. Don't go saying I want, want, want, just say, What should I do? How could you help me? You'd be surprised how many people will give you their time. - Tara Dalton

 

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes  00:00

Right now on AMPLIFIED, we're about to find out how seemingly impossible things are eminently possible.

 

Tara Dalton  00:07

He never let perfection hinder progress. And so I just say, Okay, let's just make progress. I have to be consciously aware of thinking, Oh, God, we signed a contract to do something like what have we done? Knowing full well, that's going to be a really a hard ask.

 

Dusty Rhodes  00:26

Hello, my name is Dusty Rhodes and you're welcome to AMPLIFIED, the Engineers Journal podcast. I think we can agree that Irish engineers are incredibly creative thinkers and innovators. But it's a big leap going from innovator to entrepreneur, and taking an idea you might have to market. In this episode, we'll be hearing from a prominent engineer with a fascinating career history, which took her from aeronautical engineering into the biomedical space, we'll be finding out how she looks at problems, overcomes obstacles, where she sees innovation and opportunity, and getting some great advice for any engineers who are thinking of launching their own business. It's a pleasure to welcome the CEO of Altratech and the Assistant Director of the Stokes Research Institute at UL. Dr. Tara Dalton. Tara, how are you?

 

Tara Dalton  01:14

Hi, how are you? Hi, I'm good. Thank you so much.

 

Dusty Rhodes  01:18

Listen, welcome onto the podcast. I always start off by asking people what what made you want to be an engineer? How did you get into this game at all?

 

Tara Dalton  01:28

Um, actually, I think to be to be quite truthful, I think it was, it was my father. I had all sorts of different plans. And I, you know, I, I remember not really wanting to do honors maths at school. And my father sort of saying, you know, it opens up such a lot for you. So, you know, he like he worked at the University of Limerick. And he felt that that engineering was a really good combination of creativity and of maths, you know, because I always did like the sciences. I was interested in physics and chemistry, and biology. So I think, in some senses, there was serendipitous things, I suppose it was my dad really kind of pushed me to taking that on.

 

Dusty Rhodes  02:05

So when you went through school and university, you got into engineering then proper, and you started with aeronautical engineering. Tell me a bit more about that. So actually,

 

Tara Dalton  02:13

actually, I started with mechanical and then they launched aeronautical engineering when I was in third year. So at that time, it wasn't a discipline in itself, it was something you could specialize in, in third year, I think I was just so completely fascinated, because I think it goes against every instinct in our body that we can put that thing up in the sky. Every instinct and every single time I think about something that can't be done, I look at and say they they have an engine there that is going at, you know, 15,000 RPM, that's that's huge, up at 36,000 feet. Come on, like, Of course we can do it. So I think it for me, it's just, I think it's just fascinating and in almost a romantic way. And I still love it, you know, I changed because in some senses, there's a lot more I think innovation in biomedical engineering. You know, the aeronautical engineering is quite a regulated piece. So, you know, for me, it didn't allow that creativity and that innovation, so I changed biomedical engineering, but aeronautical engineering still has a huge, you know, soft spot, I said, I didn't know they're applying them, I'm gonna watch

 

Dusty Rhodes  03:23

this, there's a real passion there for you for aeronautical and flying, but you went from that then into biomedical why, why did you make the switch? Well,

 

Tara Dalton  03:33

he so I did, I did a postdoc in the University of Limerick. And at the time, again, you know, the government had this really amazing program, it was called the programs and advanced technology programs. And basically, what they encouraged you to do was as a postdoc, they encouraged you to work hugely with industry. And then they they supported that intervention. So they wanted to link university researchers with industry and we were fortunate, we had a great kind of Pac group. And we worked with Intel, we worked with you to Packard, we worked with, you know, Nokia at the time. And I just got this feed, I just, I loved it, you know, I love that idea that what you did had an impact, you know, even if it is in a in a large multinational or a small company, commensurate with that around the same time, the size foundation Arlindo setup, and at that time, they remit to fund two big things. So ICT at the time and bio, the and, you know, that was their decision. So I thought, okay, let's be real here. You know, if you want to go research, you want to, you know, you've you've to, you have to be like, you know, like Wayne Gretzky, you know, the great ice skater, he said, skate where the puck is going to be, you know, where the puck has been. He knows I mean, so, you know, you've got to look at the landscape and say, well, that's where the research money is going to be. If you think about at the time bio, the genome had just been sequenced. This was the biggest thing ever. There was a breakthrough for peace. See our reactions and everything. So when you looked at these like, okay, there's going to be so much scope for an engineer following breaking science, in my mind and engineering, you don't want to be at the cutting edge of absolute new science. But essentially, you just want to be just behind it. So you can help to, you know, help people with that science. So for me a deal, as I said, the genome has just been sequenced, I can see for the next 15 years, you know, there's going to be massive innovation in this space, which there was. So that's why I changed from Rob arrow mechanical to much more bio COVID. But it is really applying the same principles of any engineer just to a different class of problems. If you're

 

Dusty Rhodes  05:42

listening to you're talking about kind of biomedical, I mean, you're very passionate about it, but I kind of get the impression that you're more are you more passionate about the fact that you're doing something challenging, and something new, and something that's gonna help people rather than it being actually to do with aeronautical or biomedical?

 

Tara Dalton  06:00

Yeah, I think so as I said, the same principles are applied, you know, they think engineering principles are applied to everything. But I think in Biomedical Engineering, well, first of all, it's very interdisciplinary. So you get to learn from, you know, loads of people, and it's full of problems to be solved, which is great, you know, there's loads of things that we don't know, that we want to sell. And so for me, it's like, you know, it's like, it's like, a child in a sweet shop. It Oh, there's just so many interesting things to learn. And I love learning it, there's just so much. And the other thing is, when you work with interdisciplinary team, and I work with, you know, worked with medics, with physicists, or chemists with, you know, with entrepreneurs, with with finance people, it's just, it's just amazing, because I find that everybody wants to help you be better. Nobody, I, at least in my experience, kind of gatekeepers their knowledge. And I think in in, you know, when you're in that race, where you really want to try and solve a problem, I find that people don't take the knowledge because they want to find solutions. And so it's an extraordinary place to be. And also, I think, I'm not a person that some people I think, are really good. And you see people who kind of take a problem, and they dive into it. And deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, I'm not that kind of person, I like to kind of spread out, you know what I mean? So look at, you know, applying this skill over here, over here from here, rather than doing kind of this classical, deep dive and understanding upon more. Absolutely, that's important as well, if that's just not me. So I think I think this type of problem solving, engineering suits me more than we'll say, a classic scientist, you know, where you're, you're really building on knowledge, and really getting a deep, deep understanding about that uncut of more. Okay, how do we solve a problem? So I think that's the difference between engineering Well, in my opinion, is difference between engineering and sort of deep science, if you like? Well,

 

Dusty Rhodes  08:00

I think that's what we do is, uh, you know, we look at problems and we go, Well, how can we fix this? Or how can we make it better? Now, a lot of people who will be working as engineers are within a company, and then they have all these thoughts and ideas. But sometimes, you know, things don't happen, because there's a boss upstairs, or the company doesn't want to go that way. You're different in that you kind of went, Well, I really want to do this. So I'm going to be an entrepreneur, and I'm going to start my own business, do you think that your engineering brain and the way that it works kind of helped you to stand on your own two feet and run your own business,

 

Tara Dalton  08:32

I think, on my experience, when I did the programs apart, so we ended up interacting with companies an awful lot. And I think that stood out to me. And also I just the idea that something that you created that somebody actually bought me, they paid money, I remember my my father in law saying to me that that money is a stored work, you know what I mean? And so, you know, this idea that somebody is going to pay for that. I thought, That's a brilliant idea. And I always wanted to do it, I always wanted to do it since I was like, since I was sort of 2627. And in a year, you know, whatever about a company in a university environment, you know, there's things are changing and have changed, but at that time, there is a lot of pressure put on publications, and this is what we do and the you know, it's to go and, and say, Okay, I'm going to I'm going to create a company. It's not necessary. Now, University of Limerick, I have to say we're brilliant. But you know, there are people who say, Okay, look at me, that isn't the job of an academic. But I think as an as an academic engineer, it is exactly my job, even if it's not to create enterprise to help enterprise and to work on on sort of, you know, engineering problems. So I always wanted to do that. And I think, you know, naivety is your friend in doing this, it really is because, you know, in some senses Ultratech is my second or was actually was actually technically it's my fourth company. You don't need one but That duck failed for very funny reasons. Oh, yeah, this is hilarious or silly like the first the first week, we had this amazing product, what went? Well, in my view, it was right, it was a fiber optic based system that actually was used to to turn on heaters to take ice off helicopter blades, you need to a wouldn't win helicopters and you know, obviously do ice forming on helicopter blades is really, really bad, depending on the type of ice anyway, it was a it was a piece of hardware. And for some reason I got picked to go to Boston. This is a this like 28 or something to pitch my idea in front of 100 requests, which would there would have been a lawyer firm, but with a lot of VC backing a lot of companies, there was a there was a lot of potential companies going to do that. So I remember sitting there and I had my little piece of hardware, it had my sheet with all this details on it. And I was listening to everybody present. And every single one of them was software companies, this was the.com thing. And they were to some of them were the most stupidest ideas you could ever imagine that but that wasn't the point. The point was, is they weren't getting funding these people were looking for 1.5 million 20. I learned straightaway, okay. Again, that was skate where the puck is, right. So it didn't matter, I had this great product, but to get venture capital funding, that was never going to happen, because it wasn't in that ecosystem at the time. So that was one really big learning lesson. And again, similarly, in the the second company that we did, you know, actually did work, but it wasn't again, it wasn't a high potential startup. So that was one of the reasons I changed to bio because you are basically in VCs, you know, they like to fund we're looking to fund you know, so you're thinking, Okay, I need to be in that in that area. Stokes bio was then the third company. And until we learn, okay, say okay, look, you know, this is what we're going to do, we're going to follow breaking science, we're going to use our own skills, I'm really careful about how we kind of positioned what what we did. And of course, you know, a lot of people said, we're engineers in, in in the biosciences, you haven't opened hell. And again, you just just ignore it, you know what I mean? And I think you ignore it, because you have so much fun doing it, it doesn't really matter. You know, what I mean, you're just really enjoying learning, and we'd love to PhD students, and, you know, we bring in collaborators, and, you know, to use that horrible word, but the journey, like was the you know, was, you know, that was as important as the exit and the final part of

 

Dusty Rhodes  12:33

it, but it is the journey, as you say, and what I love about what you're talking about, it's kind of like, you've given us two examples where you fell down, this isn't wrong with falling down, it's how you pick yourself up afterwards. Okay, so you fell down, once you fell down twice, you picked yourself up, once you picked yourself up twice, you went into the third one. Now, the third one was quite successful. And this is kind of you're very well known for Stokes was, you mentioned it, it's been a big part of your life, because they've kind of struggles commercial company and a university. And I don't understand how that works. So tell me about it.

 

Tara Dalton  13:06

Okay. So that, you know, yeah, so So, so myself and my co founder, Professor Mark Davies, so he was actually my PhD supervisor, and then, you know, we we kind of drifted apart, and then we came back together to, to do this. And again, the genome has been sequenced. And we're really fascinated with that. So we started a research group in the university. And you the advantage of starting your research in the university is, it's a very, it's a very gentle place to explore ideas, so that you're not giving away equity, if you make mistakes are, it's taking time that you know, for a long time, it wasn't, you know, the stuff we were doing wasn't working. And in an in a university environment, that's that can be tolerated a lot easier. And we had we had a number of PhD students, and interestingly, so actually, so we went to the SFI, even five times five times for funding and FBI wouldn't fund what we were doing, and that's okay, I get it, you know, we didn't have a history and what we were doing, and at the time, you know, reviewers would say, Look, you know, this isn't really that novel, etc. But engineering isn't supposed to be a hugely novel, it's supposed to take science and, and if you take, yeah, if you take a hero experiment that's done once you want to engineer it, so it's, you could do it 100 million times, you know, so that's kind of where we were coming at, and, and I can I get away as if i But anyway, I at that time, when I was like, Oh my God, you know, how are we going to get funding? What are we going to do now? Enterprise Ireland was, were really supportive of what we were doing, and they funded us. And I thought, okay, you know, what we'll do, we'll, we'll um, Bucha some publicity. So we did some publicity and and I contacted a publicist. And I said, Listen, you know, I think what we're doing is really kind of clever and interesting. Could you know, could we get some traction, just even on the Irish stage, not necessarily European or American. So It was caused and caught by the Irish Times, actually. And a VC saw it. And he approached us. And he said, When you spin this company out, can we be at the table, we'll give you 100,000 euros if we're at the table. And I said, look, let's forget that, let's just do it now. You know, I was so anxious. And you know, in some senses what I said we were a bit early. Probably. That's true. So the University of Limerick, and also, under the sea did a deal for our intellectual property, we did a deal for way to whole bunch of students. And we moved the company out of the university, I wanted it out to the university. So I wanted a real separation between what we did and do well, and what appealed to commercial aspect of what we were doing. And like the university, as I said, they were, they were amazing, they allowed me, myself and mark to remain as academics, okay, full time academics and to do the company. And that took a lot of creative thinking. And what we did is, they also, they assigned us our intellectual property, which means our intellectual property was owned by the company not licensed. And I know that that isn't done now. But it was such a really good thing for the company. It gave us huge freedoms later on and raising money and enjoying strategic relationships. So you know, I know that's not done nowadays. But it was it was great. So, so we ended up taking our PhD students into the company, thankfully, as they started to graduate. So we had this well, what's the word? I'm looking for conveyor belt of amazing, amazing people that we took into the company. And yeah, but you know, don't get me wrong. It was it was hard, because you know, we were new with this new what managing VCs knew what that relationships, they were raising money. And then finally, we got to strategic you know, for the the deal, the exit happened, and that was great. But it was it was tough, but fun. You know,

 

Dusty Rhodes  16:52

it's fascinating listening to you taking on this problem of having an idea and wanting to run a company to implement that idea, and the reasons why you did it. And it didn't work. The first time didn't work the second time, the third time it did work and to you, you had good partners and stuff like that. Eventually, you have to sell it, which is always you know, kind of heartbreaking. Did you make much?

 

Tara Dalton  17:11

Yeah, we did

 

17:14

it. Okay. So yeah, so we put a number on a Tyra Yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah.

 

Tara Dalton  17:19

So, so we ended up selling, so we raised about sort of maybe six, 7 million, and that we sold it for almost $50 million, which, which is a really nice return for everybody. Because if the company hadn't got had a really nice, simple cap table, it wasn't hugely diluted. So you know, it was good. It was good in that regard. So I think everybody did, did well.

 

Dusty Rhodes  17:40

Well, all I could do, I'm literally standing up and applauding. Good on you fair play, okay. Because it's brilliant. Because you follow that through and you worked on all of the problems and you had some success. Okay, as somebody that was great. And it was 2010, he sold us somewhere around Yeah,

 

Tara Dalton  17:55

then myself and Mark White to work for the company. The acquirers were like technologies that term proficient out. So we went, we took then a two year leave of absence to work with the integration of the technology into into which was, again, I got to work with a multinational for two years, which was really exciting. And that was still that was really different. And, you know, I teach my students, we do live, we do med devices, and we do like a Dragon's Den. So I teach them, you know, and one of the things this exact same thing you do with selling an idea to a VC, you'd sell an idea to your bosses in a multinational this is same thing, it's the same ideas. And so we, you know, we had that experience as well of kind of integrating the, what we were doing into, into a US multinational, which was, you know, which was, which was different, that's for certain.

 

Dusty Rhodes  18:46

So, as well as teaching and inspiring people in University of Limerick, still, you're also the CEO of ultra tech, as I mentioned in the intro, now, you're leading a team of over 20 engineers and scientists there to a layman like myself, can you describe what it is that you're working on?

 

Tara Dalton  19:01

Okay, so so I'll check it. I'm not a founder Valtryek there are two founders, one of the founders, I knew because he was founded, he founded his previous company, the same time we, I found his Stokes bio, and he was in the university as well. So and we were funded by the same venture capitalist, so we kind of knew each other. And then, you know, we kind of both he sold his company successfully, I thought line that we kind of got together. And he said he had this idea of, he's a silicon designers, electronics engineer. And he said, Oh, you know, could I do something with silicone in the bio space? And I was like, you know, it's really interesting. You say that, because there's been this huge explosion. So I know that that live technologies brought a secrecy company for silicone. I think they bought it for north of 600 million. Okay, so it was a huge acquisition. And there were some other companies that was nanopore, there was a few and I said, Juno's on the champ. I said, Yeah, you know, there's, there's an idea there. So he went away, and he kind of thought about it. And then no other venture capitalist said, you know, Tara, you know, you know Hold this space because, you know, I'd been in that kind of bio space, etc. And he said, You know what, you'll be on the board. And I was like, hey, yeah, absolutely. Because I'd been back in the university for a while I was doing some work on cancer stuff on stuff on heterogeneity of tumors. And I was like, Oh, I'm kind of feeling the itch again, now to do something outside of that. And so I said, Yeah, I'll be on the board. And then a week later, he goes, target you CEO. And I was like, Are you kidding me? I was like, oh, gosh, no, you know, and I said to my husband, I was like, Jeff, I said, Oh, God, this is Tony, you have to, you know, you have to like, so I was like, okay, okay. Okay, I'll do it. And so basically, what what it is that it's really compelling science. And it's so interdisciplinary, it's basically it's a methodology, or a product that can take that can detect any virus in a non clinical setting. Very importantly, it doesn't use an enzymatic step. So you would be aware, Okay, everybody, listen, he says, Beware of PCR, every, you know, if I was to tell everybody, there's like, three, four years ago, pre COVID, they look at me blankly, but now kind of people get it, right. So you know, what PCR is, you know, how the importance of it, and how, cuz it's such an accurate technique for detecting any virus from COVID, to flu to, you know, to HIV doesn't matter. But the trouble with PCR is, it's a technique that you can't really take outside the laboratory or the clinical setting. And so we've invented a way that can do that. And it uses a combination of, you know, really novel chemistry, biology, and micro fluidics, which is kind of white area, and silicon chip design. So it's really difficult. And it you know, it's been tough, you know, the technological development will just help. But if it wasn't taught me, it's not going to be worth it, right? Because you will say, well, then it is tough because it is so groundbreaking. And so it's going to change the world, in my view for for viral detection, in my view, but but it is, it is technically challenging.

 

Dusty Rhodes  22:06

You've mentioned several times, as you're always thinking about where the puck is going to be rather than where it is now. And when you talk about Ultra Tech, I mean, that was 20s, mid, mid 20, teens, whatever you were involved in that was it.

 

Tara Dalton  22:18

Yeah. Just prior to COVID. Exactly.

 

Dusty Rhodes  22:22

My point, right is because you got involved in this, and then COVID came along, and boom, your company is perfectly. Yeah,

 

Tara Dalton  22:28

it's so funny, because we wait a video we to do in 2000 2019, or just before COVID In November, we to do a presentation in Boston, and party me to make a video of what your technology does. And initially, we had on the video, this will this would be you know, suitable for pandemic management and etc. At that and Marty came up. The difficulty was we were our technology was too early for it. You know what I mean? Like, and when you get a crisis situation like that, what happens is, is you reposition old technology, because that's what you have to do, you don't really have the time to to invent something new. But what a crisis does is you reposition old technology. But then what it does is it makes people aware that oh my gosh, there's there's a need there, you know, there is a need for us to be able to, to manage pandemics in a much better way than obviously what we then what's happened. And there's going to be technologies that are going to enable that whether we get there whether we were in the race, I don't know. But we're definitely in with a chance.

 

Dusty Rhodes  23:33

I absolutely love how your brain works. Because seriously, because you think research development, innovation is very much key to you. You're kind of always thinking about the future. But you always seem to spot a gap in the market. And what I wanted to ask you is Do you even know in your own brain, how you are able to spot a gap in the market? What how do you weigh things up when you when you're looking at?

 

Tara Dalton  23:57

I think I think, first of all, I don't know whether I am or not, you know what I mean? I think that that remains to be seen. But anyway, I think it's because I generally, that's the broadness, this was not the deep dive person, like, you know, it's looking around you. So I've just gotten funding now for our next company, which after Ultratech and you know, and we were just doing the the early research now in the university, and it's on, it's on the immune system. It's on immunotherapies. And, you know, if I'm just asking you say, oh, yeah, okay, you get that because, you know, if you were to pick up the newspaper 10 years ago, you wouldn't read about immunotherapies you wouldn't think about it. Now we know we think about like the immune system, autoimmune diseases, allergies are our understanding about how we react to vaccines. immunotherapies for cancer, you know, that's exploded in the last 10 years. So again, we're going to need engineering behind that technology, you know, behind that science to support the growth in that area. So that's, you know, it's just it's just kind of watching and thinking that's new. Debrett's breaking signs really is where she wants to keep an eye on for me, that's what I keep an eye on. And then

 

Dusty Rhodes  25:04

when you see something that you think has potential, you look into it a little bit further. And then

 

Tara Dalton  25:10

you know, the the virus say, I mean, that's, that's kind of obvious if you though I mean, if you think about it, all the outbreaks that we've had no stars, you know, that you just know, and you know, it was going to happen. We knew it was going to happen. It was not a question of, of if it was, it was a question of weighty. Okay. I mean, you know, that's, that's 100% I mean, everything from the Spanish Flu guys, you know, it's just, it's just a matter of when, and we were lucky this time,

 

Dusty Rhodes  25:38

why are you so confident when you say that COVID Was it was a matter of when not if

 

Tara Dalton  25:43

it because there's been because others always outbreaks, there's always outbreaks, and all you need is the right conditions. So if you take something like, if you take a virus that is that, like kills people quickly, that is probably not going to spread much. It is something that spreads a lot, it's probably not going to. So all you need to do is just get that balance, right? Where a you know, spreads quickly, and it has a potentially devastating effect, that's going to happen again, of course it is, you know, and if you think about it, you know, how the world has changed global travel or interaction where something may have been contained. You know, I remember saying to somebody, you know, five years ago, I said, we will listen, somebody would use the word quarantine and in our lifetimes, and would hear the word quarantine again, you know, we were probably going up, did you ever hear the word quarantine in the 50s? You would have heard it hear when people had scarlet fever when people had people quarantined? Now, it's, it's, you know, obviously, we tried it, it's, you know, it's not really feasible. It's you know, so we need other ways of managing when these when these things happen. And it's got to be a combination of understanding and technology in my view. So

 

Dusty Rhodes  26:50

I think anybody in listening, I mean, I've my own ideas, my own radio broadcasting podcasting business about where it's going to be in 10 years time, there's engineers listening to it, and the guy, oh, my God, and she's right, because I know that in 10 years, time bump is going to be a problem, or this is going to happen again, or whatever it happens to be. If somebody is listening to you, they have a big, innovative idea in their head, but they just don't know how to move forward. What What would your advice to them be?

 

Tara Dalton  27:17

I think I think it depends where they are, you know, where they are in their we're in a physically working as well. And well, opportunities they have, you know, obviously, it's somebody's in a university there, you know, that's the that's the ecosystem, I understand. So I can, you know, very easily direct them. If somebody is in a multinational company, or somebody is not, I would have less understanding about how they would go about you know, about doing that. I think, regardless, ask for help. Everybody asked for help, go talk to people go talk to enterprise Ireland, go talk to lawyers, go talk to VCs, ask, and don't go say, I want one just say, What should I do? How could you help me? What can I do? And you'd be surprised? How many people will give you their time. And you'll be surprised at it? In my view? You know, we had we have top lawyers in Boston who did stuff for us pro bono, because they just think oh, yeah, this is really cool. We'll do that. And we'll be we'll make our money later on when they're successful. You know, there's a lot of people who will do that for you. So talk, go out there and share your idea.

 

Dusty Rhodes  28:31

I love the fact that I'm speaking to a lady who has sold a company for $50 million, and says that ask for help because it's what you did. And people were willing to step up. Isn't it amazing how Yeah, humankind

 

Tara Dalton  28:43

can even now no matter what you do, people come to me or I still go to meet with it. Okay, you know, I need help here are, I'm not sure. People who worked for me before and still do not work for me and outreach. I could work with me and Outotec and anybody, you start to build that community, and it's true, I will, I will call like, next PhD student or somebody I knows, crikey, I need help on that. Or they can call me and say, Tara, you know, to remember that you wouldn't give me an hour of your time. As like, yeah, of course you don't I mean, and I you know, I love it. So and people do love being asked for help.

 

Dusty Rhodes  29:16

That's brilliant advice, and I can't be overstated so much, how good that advice is and my own experience, I know that to be true. The other thing that I want to ask you about Tara is your approach to problem solving and again, thinking of an NGO saying I've got a brilliant idea and I want to go but it's too much oh my god, how do you know I have to get over this humongously big wall which I don't know how to get over how am I going to do it you're good problem solver what way do you break down that problem?

 

Tara Dalton  29:45

Well actually interesting. So I'm actually I'm a bit more the way you just like oh my god. Oh my god. Like John like that isn't They do jam via the site like dig, watch, scrape. Have you gotten into today? I was like, Yeah, I know. I know. I know. And it's like, and he would say, okay, you know, what can you do tomorrow? You know, stop borrowing Tobel it's got too much interest, you know what I mean? Just what can you do? And the person I worked Davies, who I worked with as well, he was really good. He never flapped he never let perfection get in hinder progress. And so I just say, Okay, let's just make progress. And and really, I had, but I, I have to be consciously aware of thinking, Oh, God, you know what I mean? What have we committed to? We signed the contract to do something like what have we done? Knowing full? Well, it that's going to be a really a hard ask, and then you think, Okay, nope, let's just, let's just put the head down. And don't think about it. You know what I mean? Literally just say, Okay, let's not have that hinder the small progresses, you don't have any so so yeah, but I would be more the way you described it, then I would be, you know, like auction, this is fine.

 

Dusty Rhodes  31:05

I've written down a sheet of paper here, never let perfection hinder progress. I'm gonna type that up. I'm gonna stick it on the wall. It's gonna stay there for six months.

 

Tara Dalton  31:13

Yeah, don't I mean, you know, to meet our, to our children, you know, children get on with it, you know what I mean? Rather than it will, because you can get this, if you see this huge problem, it's like, you just wrap it in the headlights, you just look at it and go and feel paralyzed. And then you just gotta go. Okay? No. And also, I think having people around you that you can see that too. There's a there's a guy I love listen to this. It's Simon Sinek. But he has his eight minute rule. And he says, like, you should have a team around you that, you know, for eight minutes, you could rant and that they're not instantly you know, sometimes you don't want somebody in solution space. You just want somebody to listen to you go like, Oh my god, oh my god, this is terrible. This is not going to work. What's going to happen that anatra and you give yourself eight minutes. That's it? And then it's over and over again. So So you know, I think I think you have to allow yourself that feeling and then say, Okay, push it away. Now, let's get let's let's get let's get on with it. You know, so, Tara,

 

Dusty Rhodes  32:13

I have to say like listening to you, and just chatting because I have a bit of an entrepreneurial spirit in me. And I have, I like to call myself a sound engineer. That's, that's that's how I get away with just presenting this particular thing. But like many engineers, I see problems and I want to fix them. And I want to make the world better. And I think you know, your success is amazing. And after listening to you for the last little while, you're now guarding my world. Okay? Well, this is it. Okay. That's what I wanted to ask you was, you know who people who are listening now who are inspired by you? What would you say to someone who's listening to us right now? Who does think you're an inspiration? Are you God? Are you a normal person?

 

Tara Dalton  32:56

I'm an engineer. I'm an engineer. Engineer. Those of us out there who do you know, who to all day see solve all these problems all the time? You know, and, and there's ones that artists zillion many, and I like, like Chad, when he was with this much better engineer than me, like, I'm always going to him with solving problems, you know, you know, Mark is much better. So yeah, you know, there's, I think I would say cheese your problem wisely. Often, in my mind of, for an engineer, they're often too focused on solutions, right, you solving problems. But if you want to, if you want to sort of have a impact, do that, choose your spend time choosing your problem, like, like when we were doing Stokes whale, like Mark and I spent two years in America watching what people were doing, and seeking out that landscape. So don't be afraid of taking time to figure that problem out. It'll be the solution. Anybody can do that, to be honest with you, like a lot of people if you give them a good problem, and you set the boundary conditions on that problem. And you say, okay, look, this is the kind of area that most most people weren't there salt can do that. I think that cleverness in my view, and is choosing the correct problem at the right time. That so that's what I would say, spend time doing that. And talking and socializing it and thinking of it and testing it, and arguing it. And that's why it's great to work with people because you get all that feedback. You know, it's like, if I say to you, look, I'm thinking of doing something there and you're like, why are silicones doing that? What's your angle are you know, I mean, don't be afraid to just let that argument be battered around a bit. And and it'll form much better outfits are sorry, I talk way too much apologies. Listen,

 

Dusty Rhodes  34:48

I can listen to you all day. Tara, I think what I was trying to get across was that what's inside of you and what's driven your success is inside all of us. It's an engineering in trait, and I just think listening to you and as I say, being inspired by what you're saying we can go off and we can just make our own lives a little bit better. So I just wanted to thank you very much for sharing with us today Dr. Tara Dalton, CEO of Altratech and Assistant Director of the Stokes Research Institute at UL Thank you.

 

Tara Dalton  35:17

Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

 

Dusty Rhodes  35:19

If you would like to find out more about Tara and some of the topics which we spoke about today you'll find notes and link details in the description area of this podcast right now. Also, if you enjoyed our podcast today do share with a friend in the business just tell them to search for engineers Ireland in their podcast player. Our podcast is produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland. For advanced episodes, more information on engineering across Ireland or career development opportunities, there are libraries of information on our website at engineersireland.ie, until next time from myself Dusty Rhodes, as always, thank you for listening

2023 was a ‘record breaker’ for wind power in Ireland, but have we got the resources to reach the government's goals for a renewable future?

Today we learn about some of the engineering problems behind Ireland’s long-term strategy for increasing wind power, the challenges caused by policy, regulation and mother nature, along with a huge career drive to get more people, including engineers, working in the wind sector.

Our guest is extremely passionate about Ireland’s renewable energy potential. Also a chartered engineer, he uses his many years of experience fighting tirelessly to help us make the most of our natural resources and meet our sustainability targets for 2030. He is CEO of Wind Energy Ireland, Noel Cunniffe.

Listen below or on your podcast player:

THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

• How Ireland is leading the way and breaking records in wind energy generation
• Innovative engineering work happening in Ireland’s renewable energy sector
• Policy, planning permission, community engagement and other challenges facing the wind sector
• Offshore wind and why it’s Ireland’s energy future
• The Work In Wind recruitment drive and why engineers are needed

GUEST DETAILS
Noel Cunniffe is the CEO of Wind Energy Ireland which is Ireland’s largest renewable energy association and works with a wide range of stakeholders to build understanding and awareness of the benefits of wind and renewable energy. Prior to becoming CEO, Noel led Wind Energy Ireland’s Policy department in driving policy development across all aspects of the onshore and offshore renewable industry in Ireland.

Previously, Noel was the Renewable Integration Lead in EirGrid, the Transmission System Operator of Ireland, and worked across several departments including electricity grid planning and operation, and the design of the electricity market of Ireland. He is a Chartered Engineer with Engineer’s Ireland.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/noel-cunniffe-b34a1429

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes  00:00

Right now on AMPLIFIED, we're about to find out how Ireland is setting new records for wind power.

Noel Cunniffe  00:05

I know this is probably very bonkers to think about. But if we didn't have wind energy over the past two years, our electricity bills would have been much, much, much higher than they already were.

Dusty Rhodes  00:19

Hi there. My name is Dusty Rhodes and you're welcome to AMPLIFIED, the Engineers Journal podcast. 2023 was a record breaking year for wind power in Ireland and very shortly, you will be amazed to hear how much electricity we actually generate here from wind. Over the next half hour or so we're hoping to learn more about the engineering problems behind Ireland's long term strategy for increasing wind power. The challenges caused by policy, regulation and Mother Nature, along with a huge career drive to get more people including engineers working in the wind sector. Our guest is extremely passionate about Ireland's renewable energy potential. As a chartered engineer, he's been working in the area for a long time and fights tirelessly to help us make the most of our natural resources and meet our sustainability targets for 2030. I'm delighted to welcome to our AMPLIFIED podcast the CEO of Wind Energy Ireland. Noel Cunniffe, how are you Noel?

Noel Cunniffe  01:16

Very good Dusty, thank you very much for having me.

Dusty Rhodes  01:20

So listen, tell me about the wind power, because when I heard this fact, I was flabbergasted how much of our electricity is generated from wind? Yeah,

Noel Cunniffe  01:29

it's something that a lot of people in the country don't know is that we're actually a world leader when it comes to the amount of our electricity that comes from wind. So Ireland's story wind energy began back in the 90s, our very first onshore wind firm was built in 1992. So it's been operational for over 30 years now. And over that amount of time from the early 90s. Right up until 2023, we've built up more and more onshore wind, we've started with offshore wind with a bit more to go there would today. Or I should say maybe even last year in total over the course of the year, over 1/3 of Ireland's electricity came from winter. And as you can imagine, it's very weather dependent. So in some times of the year, like in December, which has just gone by over 50% of Ireland's electricity during the course of December came from wind. So during the Christmas period while everybody was cooking their turkeys, binging Netflix, you know, making ample amounts of tea and hot whiskies. One in two times when you are boiling a kettle turning on your TV using your internet, it was thanks to wind energy. How

Dusty Rhodes  02:33

are we generating so much? Because I would imagine if we're generating half of it that there should be massive propellers all over the country. I don't see that all over the country. How are we generating so much?

Noel Cunniffe  02:44

Yeah, well, last year was also a kind of quite a unique year, because for the very first time for a couple of times over the course of the year, all of Ireland's electricity at certain periods came from wind energy, mostly sunny evening and nighttime. So as I mentioned, like the very first wind farm was built in mail in 1992. And it was really in the kind of mid 2000s, to the teens that we started to accelerate wind energy. So particularly kind of 2015 to 2020. And we're continuing to do that. So today to kind of get into some of the figures, we have just under five gigawatts of wind energy installed on our grid. So to put that into context, the peak electricity demand that we have in Ireland, over the course of a year is about six, maybe about six and a half gigawatts. So we nearly have all of our electricity demand that could be met at peak by wind energy today. And our goal then for 2030 is to try and move that onshore wind target from nearly five gigawatts up to about nine gigawatts. And then for offshore wind energy, we're really at a standing start with one very small offshore wind farm off the coast of virtual. And we have to go from that standing start up to about five gigawatts by 2030. So we have a lot of work to do. But thankfully, we've one of the best industries here in the world to be able to deliver upon that we've got some brilliant engineers, brilliant planners, brilliant, brilliant economists, they're working tirelessly on this. And then investment is really there to try and drive it on and deliver that wind energy goal for Ireland.

Dusty Rhodes  04:17

With all of this going on, it has been such a success, then, tell me how does wind energy work from an engineering point of view out as a word? I mean, where do you set up the farms? How many do you need? How big are they give me some give me some of the practicalities? Yeah,

Noel Cunniffe  04:32

sure. So I think when the sector was initially starting off, you needed quite a few turbines to generate, you know, relatively speaking, not that much electricity. So the original wind farms in Ireland were predominantly based on the west coast. So we're talking Donegall Mayo Carey, where there would have been that very strong Atlantic wind coming in. Typically they would have been located on the site of mountains or Hilda to try and again be exposed capture as much of that wind energy as possible. So the turbines are obviously spinning, then when the wind is blowing, that's then converted into electricity on site. So each of the turbines would have a generator within them. And then that turbine is then connected into the electricity grid. So the grid is, is pretty much the transportation system for how electricity gets from where it's generated, be it in a wind farm, or a solar farm or a gas generator, to then our homes and our businesses and our towns and our cities. So every single electrical device that you have in your house, be at your leisure, or your cattle, your your laptop, that's actually connected to the electricity grid in a direct path, right away through to every single wind farm in our country. So that's how the electricity grid is the heartbeat of how we we power Ireland and how we generate it. And then it's really the wind energy that helps to provide as much of that power as possible from indigenous domestic sources, which is zero carbon emitting, and ideally, kind of keeping as much of that revenue and money that's being put into the wind energy and I and the guests coming out of it, then within Ireland, that's the advantage compared to perhaps where we would have historically produced our electricity by importing oil and gas, you know, not only is that emitting carbon emissions driving up our energy costs, because we're so reliant on it. But it is also then that money is leaving Ireland and exiting and then going off to those countries that are producing prostitutes.

Dusty Rhodes  06:33

Tell me more about the physical side of it. Because you said wind farms on the side of mountains now I can understand because you're attaching these these huge constructions to the land. But then you mentioned several in the Atlantic Ocean. How do you put these into the Atlantic Ocean? Yeah,

Noel Cunniffe  06:52

so for onshore wind, they kind of Yeah, it started on the hills. I think the technology is probably moved on so much now that the turbines are so efficient that you can kind of put them in places where you probably weren't thinking about previously, and that includes in the sea. Ireland was actually again, one of the world's first developers of offshore wind energy. It was the the late Grace Eddie O'Connor, who's recently pastor, his company, SSE Airtricity, in the early 2000s, decided to go out on a limb and really try and see could we do something with offshore wind energy, and they built the first offshore wind farm in Arklow. Bay in Wicklow. At the time, it was the largest offshore wind firm in the world. So there's two different types of offshore wind firms. There's fixed bottom offshore wind farms recalled and then there's floating offshore wind farms. So, the technology predominantly today, including that one in Arklow is fixed bottoms, where the turbines themselves are fixed to the floor of the seabed, be it through piles or through other types of almost lattice tower constructions. And they can be deployed in depths that are out to about maybe 6070 meters deep. So around Ireland or East Coast and are so cost when you get off the get into the sea Leto. Our depths tend to go out for about maybe 12 Miles 20 Miles at that depth of you know 50 To 60 meters, so you can deploy the fixed bottom technology there. Once you get out further into the say the outline of the Atlantic or off the south coast tends to get deeper faster. But we do have the continental shelf which is a real advantage for us when it comes to floating offshore wind energy. So floating offshore wind energy is a technology which anchors to the seafloor using an anchor that you might see in a ship, for example, to put it simplistically, and then the turbines are on the water and kind of floating along with the waves and you can deploy them to a greater depth.

Dusty Rhodes  08:46

So would it work something like an oil rig in the North Sea? Not

Noel Cunniffe  08:51

too dissimilar, exactly, very similar type of technology minority tend to be again, depending on where you are. Europe has the advantage of shallower waters for a much greater extent so they can play fixed bottom in areas that we couldn't floating offshore wind energy is a technology that there's a huge amount of research going into it at the moment. Some of the best researchers in Ireland actually in colleges right around our coastlines are working on floating offshore wind energy, I present, I think it's going to be a really big technology for Ireland's future, particularly when we get into that kind of second half of the 2030s 2040s 2050s. It will be our predominant offshore wind technology in that type of time prep. Now,

Dusty Rhodes  09:30

we're talking huge numbers about what it's able to generate as an overall percentage of our electricity usage. Do you think that Ireland could ever be 100% reliant on renewable energy and just not use oil? Who

Noel Cunniffe  09:43

100% Definitely no doubt about that it will happen. I think a lot of the decisions that are being made today from a policy perspective are going to decide when that happens. I get asked a lot. What happens when the wind doesn't blow. You know, where does our backup come from? And then the short term, the answer is going to be gas generation. That's that's the least polluting fossil fuel that we have. That's what we should be using, we should not be using oil, we should not be using coal, unless it's an absolute emergency. But in the longer term you with different portfolios of renewable technology, so the wind blows differently onshore than it is offshore, for example. So if it's not blowing onshore, it might be blown offshore, and vice versa. So you those can kind of balance each other. And then similarly, for solar generation, you know, it's most windy in Ireland in the winter, when it's we have storms in the evenings are long and nighter obviously longer as well. So we don't have that much solar generation. But then the times when maybe it isn't as windy in Ireland is the come summer periods for We've lots of sun. And that's where solar generation can really help balance wind. So if you can combine those two types of technologies, and then the key thing is how you can store that energy over time. So Ireland is brilliant when it comes to rolling out battery energy storage as well. Again, it's probably an unknown success story that we have here, where we can store wind and solar energy for periods of about maybe it's up to about maybe 30 minutes to two hours at the moment, that's where the technology is. But more and more of that technology is moving towards multi hour, overtime, multi day storage. So you can and we will get to a point in time where wind and solar energy when it's windy and Sunny will be powering our country. And when it's not, we'll be relying on stored energy from renewables to try and generate that electricity, be it through battery energy, storage hydrogen or some other format.

Dusty Rhodes  11:39

Why is it only 30 minutes to two hours, because I'm thinking in my head, a much bigger version of a rechargeable battery that I would have in my home, okay, so I can recharge that battery, and it goes to whatever 100% And then I can leave it sitting around on a shelf for a couple of weeks, and then put it into a radio or whatever it is that I'm going to be using on it and it works. Why can you not do that with super big batteries for wind energy? Yeah,

Noel Cunniffe  12:07

it's a really good question. I guess the simple answer is that the engineers that ruin our power system in air grid and an ESB networks, we've got, again, some of the best engineers in the world, we're operating an island electricity grid, with pockets of renewable energy, I can't tell you how unusual that is, for all the electricity grid nerds out there like myself, it's brilliant. But one of the big challenges with that tends to be trying to respond to short term problems. So for example, if you're running your electricity grid, you constantly need to have the the supply of electricity balanced with the demand for electricity, that so our safe power system works. There's constant supply balance. And if you have a power plant that we trip off, for example, all of us are aware that, you know, in certain circumstances, our electricity might trip and we'd go to the fuse board and we'd see switched out. Power plants operate in a very similar manner where you might have a gas generator trip off the grid, for example. And that power needs to be replaced very quickly. And that's where the batteries come in. So our engineers and our grid have incentivized the building of short duration batteries to try and solve that problem. Now, the longer term batteries that you're talking about the kind of multi hour multi day batteries, that problem is now starting to be realized as something that we need to tackle. And the technology is starting to come there. I would say, you know, if you were tried trying to do this 10 years ago, it would have been quite expensive. Whereas now the technology is coming there, there's multitudes of different types, be it through traditional battery be a true hydrogen be a true kind of using what's called flow batteries, which are using liquid to try and store energy. So that technology has come in and again, by the end of the decade, we're going to have a lot of it deployed right around Ireland to try and help balance that supply demand issue to make sure that we maximize renewable energy. Can

Dusty Rhodes  13:56

I ask you about the cost of it sounds amazing. All right, but I'm just thinking of my ESP bill. Okay. So, you know, traditionally is quite high with tradition, we've been quite reliant on oil and gas. I know that in countries where they have nuclear power, the electricity bills tend to be cheaper with these wind turbines. Are we going to see an improvement with our bills?

Noel Cunniffe  14:14

We already are? It's a quick answer. So like, I know, this is probably very bonkers to think about. But if we didn't have wind energy, over the past two years, our electricity bills would have been much, much, much higher than they they already were. So everyone around the country homes and businesses have experienced the pain of the Russian invasion of the Ukraine and what that then meant for energy security in Europe and energy supply in Europe and Ireland's price was really dictated because of our reliance on imported fossil fuels. If you can just look at the energy ecosystem as a whole not just electricity, but heat and transport as well. We still import about 85% of all of our fuel And then from oil and from gas. And those price spikes were extraordinary wind energy helped to push the most expensive oil and gas off the electricity grid, we produce a report every single month, which looks at the amount of wind which was generated in the month previous, but also looks at them the price of electricity on the wholesale market, on the days when we had the most wind and the days when we had the least amount of wind. And what you typically see is that on the days, when we we have wind energy available, the price tends to be you know, half of that of the day when we don't have wind energy available. So Wind energy has been protecting us to try and minimize the impact of our of our bills, clearly, more needs to be done. And the more that we can roll out renewable energy, not just wind solar as well, to try and push off that fossil fuels make us less reliant on imports, more reliant on our own domestic supply where we control the price, then we're in for a win. And that's what I think we should be striving for. As a country.

Dusty Rhodes  15:57

If someone is interested in getting these reports that you produce monthly, are they available online? Anywhere? Is it just an internal industry thing, no

Noel Cunniffe  16:05

wind energy ireland.com we produce the reports every month, typically, there's there's usually reports in media on them, as well. So I think it's something that more people have become aware of. It's something that we're constantly trying to do to try to, I guess, promote the industry, like one of our biggest challenges over the next 10 years or so is going to be trying to bring people into our sector to try and deliver the objectives that we have. When it comes to onshore wind and offshore winds and the electricity grid and rolling that out further, we simply don't have enough engineers, we don't have enough planners, we don't have enough energy economists in the sector at the moment to deliver the targets that we have in 2030 and beyond. So promoting what wind energy does on a monthly basis is part of almost our long term recruitment campaign to train in, bring people in, be it people looking for new careers, or students in primary secondary students and thinking about what a successful career might look like for them in the future. listening

Dusty Rhodes  17:03

to you talk about wind energy, it all sounds amazing. However, a lot of people object if they find out that a wind farm is going to be set up in their area, what are their concerns? Why do they not like this? Yeah,

Noel Cunniffe  17:18

so I think we as a sector have learned an enormous amount when it comes to community engagement over the past 1015 years, I think we could have done better with engaging with communities in probably, you know, the 2010s, of what we've taken on board, a lot of that feedback, and that opposition. And what we're seeing on doorsteps today is a much more understanding. And I think we've gotten better at engaging with communities identifying what their concerns are, and then adapting projects.

Dusty Rhodes  17:50

What are the concerns? What What are they saying to you on the doorstep.

Noel Cunniffe  17:53

So a lot of the times, it could be things like, you know, related to scenery, or the impact of perhaps tourism in an area or just a general uncertainty around perhaps the noise of wind energy. But there's lots of evidence to show that, you know, from a health point of view, there is no impact when it comes to having a wind farm near your house. When it comes to noise I the current kind of noise guidelines that are there for the industry, a winter by needs to be quieter than a refrigerator outside your home. And then when it comes to tourism, there is multiple reports showing that zero impact on tourism and in fact, many wind farms now they're becoming tourist amenities. Because I know myself, I'm based in the Midlands, I have multiple wind farms that are near me, which now have community walking tracks, which have, you know, activities for kids playgrounds in their locations. And we really encourage people to go and please go and visit a wind farm and go and experience it and see it for yourself. Many of them are open right around the country. And when you take that kind of general sentiment towards wind energy, I think as we look at particularly what we've been through in the last two years, with the energy price crisis that we've seen, more and more people recognize that the solution to high energy prices, the solution to energy security and the solution to decarbonisation is domestically produced renewable energy and for Ireland, our best answer for that is wind energy. So we carry out a an independent polling of people around Ireland every single year to try and understand what their concerns are and what they perceive as the benefits of wind energy. This year, about four and five people are in favor of wind energy, and about one in 20 are opposed to it. So if you try to find anything in Ireland, where one in 20 people will not oppose something I would really like to see that. So I think those figures Yeah, it is rare, but those figures have kind of increased over time and gotten stronger and stronger as people I've seen the benefits of wind energy, and more people are probably experienced when firms in their area and the benefits that they can bring.

Dusty Rhodes  19:56

Is there anything in it for people who are living near wind farms and mean, is there a financial incentive? Or do they get free electricity or anything like that?

Noel Cunniffe  20:03

Yeah, like many, many companies are offering different things, there's a couple of things that are kind of mandatory called near neighbor payments. So there will be things that if you're located near a wind farm, there will be a payment associated with that. There's also a really good scheme that has been brought in by the government in the past few years called community benefit funds, where if you are a community near a wind farm, then there will be a fund created for you every single year. And then it's up to that community to decide how that money is spent. So, for example, in I think it was 2020, to about 4 million euro went into community benefit funds around Ireland, and that helped to pay for things like investment in GA investment in nursing homes, on top of all of that as well, again, something that a lot of people wouldn't be aware of is that all of these wind farms that we have in Ireland are paying annual rates to county councils. So there's many counties around Ireland that have 10 to 20% of their entire income for the year coming from wind farms and their location. So that's helping to pay for, for schools, for libraries for roads in all of these counties around Ireland. So again, there's a lot of hidden benefits there that people are not seeing. But it shows the overall economic benefit to Ireland, of producing our own energy if we can.

Dusty Rhodes  21:22

Let's talk more about the engineering side of things. What factors do you have to consider when you are looking for somewhere to build a wind farm? What are the kinds of things that goes through the head? Really,

Noel Cunniffe  21:35

really good question. So I would say originally, when wind farms were being looked at, it was all about where's the windiest areas and where's the, you know, the best wind speed and that's what led a lot of wind farms originally to be generated or created on the West Coast and on mountainous regions. More and more, though, because of the advancements in the turbine technology. Ireland is just so windy everywhere compared to other countries, you can kind of you could legitimately put a turbine anywhere, if you were only looking at wind speed. So I don't think that that's as big a criteria now as it used to be. So things that are important are things like the most important one currently is actually access to the electricity grid. So where is our electricity grid strong enough that you can connect a wind farm into it, and then your power can be sent out anywhere in the country. So more and more projects are looking at the future of our electricity grid, where projects are going to be to try and expand capacity there. And then they're trying to locate wind farms in those regions. So that's run onto it. For offshore wind, a lot of those decisions are now being made by the government. So we have what's we're moving towards what's called a plan lead system for offshore wind energy, where the government will engage in multiple consultation processes to do a lot of environmental screening assessments, and then identify areas of the costs these costs. So cost the west coast of Ireland for offshore wind energy to be developed. And then developers will participate in in competitive processes, be it through an auction system or something equivalent to then be selected as the company to build the wind firm in that government selected reach.

Dusty Rhodes  23:20

No, let me ask you in particular about offshore wind, you kind of believe that this is the big growth area or this is the answer why

Noel Cunniffe  23:30

100% This is Ireland's energy future. As I mentioned, we've only one small offshore wind farm in Ireland. At present, we're trying to develop about seven to 10 offshore wind farms in the next 10 years. So we have a lot of work to do there. A lot of people again, wouldn't realize this. But if you look at the total economic area that Ireland has available to it, we have a C area that seven times our land mass in our control. So Ireland is one of the largest countries in Europe when you take that into account, but seven, eight of us are underwater. And that creates a lot of challenges, but a lot of opportunities. And if you combine that large sea area with one of the windiest countries on the planet, are a capability for offshore wind energy is just incredible. Be that through supplying our own domestic energy supply, which is the the I guess the the first goal of that in the next 1015 years or so. But then by 2050, we are going to be a battery for Europe. We're going to be supplying electricity, not just for Ireland, we're going to be exporting that into Europe. We're going to be utilizing that clean energy to create new products, new manufacturing bases, right around the coastlines of Ireland. Now you can really see this being something that a lot of people are getting very excited about in the areas like Rosslare and cork in Wexford in Limerick Galway. There's a lot of investment going into our ports. There's a lot of investment going into our education ecosystems in those areas to try and make sure that we have the people ready to capitalize on the is and what it will mean for Ireland in the next 2030 years. It's a massive economic opportunity.

Dusty Rhodes  25:05

Another thing that we have to worry about when you're looking at our location is of course planning permissions, the bane of everybody's life. There's delays, I'm sure in the in the sector, how's that? How's it affecting your goals?

Noel Cunniffe  25:20

So the planning system is definitely the biggest challenge, I would say that our industry is facing at the moment, it tends to be with projects that apply for planning permission, it's the uncertainty of when those projects are going to come out on the other side, which is the biggest challenge, if you apply for planning permission today to be on board Panola. For example, there is a statutory guideline timeline in there of about 18 weeks that a project should be decided upon. But on average, it's more like 90 weeks when a project gets decided upon. So it's a significant time increase. What I think Ireland needs when it comes to unlocking energy independence and delivering more renewable energy is investment in our planning system, not in people and in resources and in skill sets. And it's not just in the likes of and more Panola, or local authorities than their planning departments. It's in the National Parks and Wildlife Service. It's in the environmental NGOs to help to decide how projects determine how plan permissions are determined for projects. I think when a lot of people hear me speaking about the planning system, they automatically think, Oh, they're just asking for a simpler, right through the planning system. That is absolutely not the case, the planning system gets decisions through it just gets them through at a really slow pace compared to what we need to be doing to be able to deliver upon our targets. So the more people that are in there that can help make decisions faster, be it positive or negative for one firm, the better. And I think it extends out just to the to the wind energy sector, like I think, like one big important thing for Ireland, they'd probably be like number two on the list of the challenges that need to be overcome is our electricity grid down investment there. So air grid and ESB networks have brilliant plans really good plans to try and upgrade Ireland's electricity system for 2014 for 2030 for 2014. But they're going to be running into this roadblock now very soon. So yeah, unlocking that planning system through more people, and through more effective policies to enable renewable energy I think is going to be important.

Dusty Rhodes  27:24

I was actually just about to ask you about the infrastructure. Because of so much energy has been generated by wind and has been put into our grid as it is it sounds like we could lead to overload. So what is it that they need to do to improve our grid?

Noel Cunniffe  27:36

So grid is is I think, traditionally been something that Ireland hasn't done great at in terms of accepting as a con as a country. Ireland's electricity grid began again, probably in the 1920s going up to the 1950s, huge investment in the 1980s in our grid and an early 1990s. And we had almost an overbilled of grid in the 1980s and 1990s. And that gave us headroom. And we've used all of that headroom over the last 20 years through our country growing our economic economy expanding through the rollout of renewable energy. We're really at the point now where we as a country need to get in, jump in and invest in grid again. And that means building overhead lines, underground cables, new substations, it is the the heartbeat of a thriving economy, and decarbonisation and ensuring that our lights stay on. So we need a grid. It's not just the planning system, that's going to be an issue there. I think it's political support. When you look back at plans that, you know, tried to build our electricity grid in the late 2000s. In in the teens, they really failed because of a lack of political support for projects progressing into the planning system and through a planning system. So we actually helped to establish a campaign last year which engineers Ireland are also involved in, and it's called build our grid. And it's trying to build awareness for the benefits of having a strong electricity grid and what that means for economy for decarbonisation for our security of supply. And the more people that recognize that we do need to invest in our grid, the better.

Dusty Rhodes  29:12

Can you give me some examples of specific physical infrastructure that we're going to need.

Noel Cunniffe  29:17

So apart from the turbines and the panels, I think you're talking about it is really getting into that overhead power lights, it is really getting inside all underground cables and a new electricity. This electricity substations, battery energy projects, also going to be really important. They tend to be shipping containers is almost what they look like. So they're, they're in an enormous footprint. One of the most interesting infrastructure projects that we're going to need as well, when you start to look outside of Ireland is our ability to connect to other electricity grids. So Ireland is currently what's called interconnected to Britain. We have one line joining just north Dublin into England. And then we have another one connecting Northern Ireland, Scotland, we're going to be recurrently, building two more represent another one connecting into Britain, our Connecting another one into France in 2027. These are huge infrastructure projects, multi billion euro projects. And they need to be delivered again by about 2030. So I think it's a bit of everything, there is huge amount of private and public investment that is going into this to huge transformation for what we need to see in our electricity system. But I guess the benefit of all of this is that we're going to have a clean source power, because the best way to decarbonize the heat and transport sectors is to put a plug on things, the more you can put a plug on all aspects of your life for your business, then the lower carbon is going to be so that means to plug in our transport, which electric vehicle electric bus, put a plug on your heating with a heat pump. And that way Ireland can decarbonize not just electricity sector, but also the heat transport sectors too, which is a big challenge.

Dusty Rhodes  31:01

And let me ask once again, about here in Ireland, when there is no wind in the summer, or solar when there is no sun ever. There's a word for that. When we don't have wind or sun, what is the word?

Noel Cunniffe  31:13

It's a German word. It's called dunkel floater. Where does that come from? Great question. I don't know the answer to that one. But, but it is it is often raised. So the idea behind it is it's a calm, cooled period where there isn't wind, and it's very cloudy, so there isn't much sun. And these types of periods can sometimes last for multiple days. And that's the real goal for people working in the you know, particularly the research side of the renewable energy sector, how can we power our grids or homes or businesses shoring those times using renewable energy, when we might not when we we won't have wind or we won't have solar available. So I think in the short term, it's going to be doing as much as we can with things like batteries, but then needing to rely on gas generation. And that's probably going to be the case for the next 10 years or so, in the longer term. The kind of the Great White hope, let's say for the power sector is is in hydrogen, and in what's called E fuels, so electric fuels. So hydrogen is quite interesting. You can use renewable energy to separate water h2o into its components h2, hydrogen and oxygen. And then you can use that hydrogen gas in the same way that you would current gas that we have in positive gas on our on our grid, so you can burn it in power plants, you can burn it in various devices, and the only output of that is not carbon emissions, it's its water. So that's what the kind of the goal is in the long term to move to that. Now that technology is a bit off. It's certainly not something that we're going to be deploying at a wide scale in the 2030 tight timeframe. But it is something that we should be looking into as a country and we are looking into we do have a hydrogen strategy. And you can then use that hydrogen to create other types of fields, be it ammonia, or different types of fertilizers that could be used again in other industries or tell power, for example, like sustainable aviation fuels to help decarbonize our aircraft sector, or even ammonia is being used and chipping at the moment too. So again, lots of progress to be seen there in the next few years. I'm sure.

Dusty Rhodes  33:26

Renewable energy is a huge growth area in Ireland from everything that you were saying. A lot of jobs, which, you know, is no surprise, where are the engineering jobs.

Noel Cunniffe  33:39

The engineering jobs are really interesting. So my background is civil engineer, but I transitioned into electrical engineering. And I would say you can find an engineering job anywhere in the renewable energy industry, be that civil engineering, where if you're looking to construct, say, a wind turbine, or a wind farm, and electricity grid corridor, and electricity substation, we are excellent in Ireland, when it comes to electrical design, we've got some of the best companies in the world that we're exporting abroad here. When it comes to electrical design. If you are a mechanical engineer, there's lots of really interesting problems and challenges that we're trying to solve with maximizing wind energy, solar energy, looking at things like how we deploy offshore wind energy off the coast of Ireland, and in floating wind in particular is a technology that we really need to get to grips with what a lot of the research centers are looking at at the moment. And then electrical engineers, again, we have some of the best electrical engineers in the world work on our power system in our grid, Denise networks in companies right around Ireland. So I couldn't recommend a career in this sector more to anyone that would like to get into it to help kind of promote the sector. We actually launched an initiative in October last year. It's called work in wins daata eak. And it's really geared towards people that want to perhaps try a career in the renewable energy sector or to second level students who might be filling out their SEO application forms in the coming weeks and thinking, how am I? What's my career going to be? So on that website, you can actually take a short quiz. And you can say, are you more analytical? Are you more into history? Are you more into English? Do you like working outside? Do you like working inside you like working with people? Do you like working by yourself. And then depending on what the quiz results come up with, it'll give you a selection of jobs that are available in the industry, and a number of college courses that are available right around Ireland to help you get into those careers. So it's something that we're going to be given a quite a big push on over the coming weeks. And hopefully, it'll attract people into our sector, because we need people. It's definitely the top of the risk register for a lot of companies in our sector. How do we get the right people in?

Dusty Rhodes  35:48

Give me the URL for that website again?

Noel Cunniffe  35:52

Yeah, so it's working wind.ie? Please do check it out, and promote it to anyone that you know that's in school or thinking about applying for jobs in the near future. There's loads of information on that website.

Dusty Rhodes  36:05

workinwind.ie, a very easy one to remember. I like it. Noel, I have to say, it's been a fascinating conversation with you today, because I've seen wind farms around and had a passing kind of wonder, you've just filled in so much. And it sounds amazing. And I'm just astounded at what we are producing at the moment through wind, and I suppose also solar and then also what the plans are for the next. I was about to say 10 years, but I'm mean 2030 is not that long away. It's only six years away. So I mean, it's very much happening and growing fast. And I'll tell you, that website is definitely going to be one that I'll be checking out workinwind.ie. Of course, if you'd like to find out more about Noel and some of the topics that we spoke about today, you'll find notes about what we were chatting about and other link details including contacts for note in the description area of this podcast. But for now, Noel Cunniffe, CEO of Wind Energy Ireland. Thank you for joining us.

36:59

Thank you very much.

Dusty Rhodes  37:02

If you enjoyed our podcast today, do share it with a friend in the business just tell them to search for Engineers Ireland in their podcast player. The podcast is produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland, for advanced episodes, more information on engineering across Ireland or career development opportunities, there are libraries of information on the website at engineersireland.ie Until next time from myself, Dusty Rhodes, thank you for listening

Engineers are primed to think on their feet and solve problems in record times, but dealing with the weight of a whole country’s emergency call service requires lightning approaches and a ‘nothing is impossible’ attitude.

Today we dive into the world of the most important telecommunications operation in the country, the Emergency Call Answering Service (ECAS). We learn how the service operates in ways people may never consider and the contingency plans that help it weather any storm, or pandemic.

Our expert guest has been at the cutting edge of data and communications in Ireland since the introduction of the internet and is now Head of Operations with ECAS, Michael Kelly.

Listen below or on your podcast player:

THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

• How Emergency Call Answering Service (ECAS) operates
• Problem solving in an industry with 99.999% uptime
• Adapting to weather and pandemic phenomena
• Lessons learned from introducing the internet to Ireland
• Why we shouldn’t fear AI and start seeing it as an asset

GUEST DETAILS
Michael Kelly - Head of Operations - Emergency Call Answering Service (ECAS)

Michael has extensive experience in the telecommunications industry including his role with PostGEM where he helped introduce the public internet during the late 80s/early 90s. He has also served as Director of the Internet Services Provider Association of Ireland until he joined BT as their Head of Engineering Planning & Design. Since 2012, he has been Head of Operations for the 112/999  Emergency Call Answering Service (ECAS).

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-kelly-a5312810/

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes  00:00

Right now on AMPLIFIED the Engineers Ireland podcast, we get behind the scenes at 999 and hear how their engineers handled the biggest emergency of our time.

Michael Kelly  00:09

We brainstormed on Thursday afternoon. We had a prototype on the Friday morning. We proved the prototype Friday night. We built our production officers on Saturday and Sunday. And the first calls were taken from home Monday afternoon.

Dusty Rhodes  00:26

Hi there, my name is Dusty Rhodes and you welcome to AMPLIFIED the Engineers Journal podcast. In this episode, we're about to dive into the world of telecommunications and hear how an engineering mindset is vital to keeping up with operations in a fast paced industry. Our guest today has worked extensively in the area where his career has taken him from the birth of the Internet in Ireland to the last few years, where he's acted as the head of operations of the emergency call answering service with BT. I'm delighted to welcome Michael Kelly. Hi, how are you doing?

Michael Kelly  01:02

I'm great. Dusty great to see you. Thanks for having me.

Dusty Rhodes  01:08

Listen, can I start with the emergency call answering service, it's kind of something that we take for granted, you just dial 112 or 999. But a few of us very few of us understand how it actually works. How do you explain the service to people simply? Well,

Michael Kelly  01:24

I think everybody's familiar with the concept of dial 909, or 112. And you're put through to the emergency services, I think the majority people probably assume that it's a guard, call taker or a guard who actually takes the call. That's not how it works. And in most countries, that's not how it works. Generally, there's what we call a stage one service. And that takes the emergency call and determines with you the caller, what is the emergency service that you really need. And in our case in Ireland, that can be Garda, ambulance, fire or Coast Guard. So that determination is made, we gather some information, we also are gathering some technical information in the background that you wouldn't be aware of. And then that is passed as a package, the video, the data, the metadata, to the emergency service, and that you get the help that that you need.

Dusty Rhodes  02:19

I have in my imagination that people are making a phone call, you talk about gathering information that people aren't aware of are you able to take things like you know, could the location of a person's mobile phone or their number or where the area they might even be? While

Michael Kelly  02:34

like most things in life, it's about location, location location. If we can find you, we can help you. If we can't find you, we can't help you. It's as simple as that. So the technology has been improved, I suppose from 99 goes back to about the 1930s, where location would have been communicated verbally. But the problem with that is that the caller may not be particularly variable, or they may be completely unaware of where they actually are, or they have unfortunately met with such an incident that they no longer remember where they are. So to get over that technology has become even more important than actually getting an address or location from the caller. So over the last probably seven or eight years, we've improved our mobile communications, particularly such that how it works now for the majority of calls and the majority of calls these days, probably 75 80% of emergency calls are made on a mobile phone as opposed to a fixed limit. In the background, the handset is using various location technology is giving a GPS coordinates of exactly where you are. And in parallel to the call, we use SMS, where there is no record on the phone at all of us. But it's used to transmit and transmit continuously updated locations. Typically, the first location that we get is relatively inaccurate, it might be maybe 200 meters accuracy, but by the time we get the second or third one, it may be down to two meters accuracy. And that happens within 15 to 20 seconds.

Dusty Rhodes  04:18

First problem I can see coming up with this is GDPR and data protection, they're held to how do you get over that problem? Very,

Michael Kelly  04:25

very simple. There is an actual carve out in the data protection legislation, which basically says in layman's language, well, if this is an emergency, then all bets are off, and it's in your best interest that we're able to find you. Now having said that, we go to enormous lengths to protect that information. People probably assumed that you know, we just pass on the location willy nilly. No we don't. It's only passed to the emergency services. Occasionally we will get requests for call recordings and other info about calls. And it is only when people have satisfied the very, very stringent, most stringent requirements that our call recording might be released. And of course, it has to be strictly relevant to the person themselves.

Dusty Rhodes  05:12

Giving people help and getting them help fast and knowing where they are. I mean, they're all very important of what kind of levels are you dealing with? I mean, how many calls you get a day or across a year? How quickly do you answer calls, that kind of stuff uptime is another?

Michael Kelly  05:25

Yeah, uptime is another thing. I'll come back to that. to your first question. We do 2.4 million calls. So 200,000 a month 50,000. A week 6000 A day. Having said that, that isn't a complete answer. Because it's, I suppose I would say that emergency calls are extremely predictable. We're dealing with human beings worldwide. And they work in very predictable patterns. And that's an area that I'm very interested myself to share predictability of it is is quite fascinating. But 6000 calls a day, it probably folds to maybe five and a half 1000. During the week. As the weekends come in, it gets a little bit busier. And in particular than Friday nights, and Saturday nights would be the busiest of all. And clearly, Friday nights and Saturday nights can also fall into the small hours of the following morning as well. It also has a there's a little bit of a different pattern between emergency calls to police, our guard and to ambulance ambulance, the volumes grow through the day on a very, very gradual basis, peaking probably around 11 or 12 o'clock at night, whereas Garda calls would probably start to peak earlier in the day will be much more erratic, up and down. The other thing that's fascinating as well about it is that a guard a call from start to finish, and one of them one of our jobs is that we record everything and all data for evidence purposes for the courts and for for investigations. The guard call typically takes about two minutes, 120 seconds, the average ambulance call takes about six minutes. But with a very, very long statistical tail, we would have some cards that would go up to 2425 minutes. This could be for a number of reasons. Either there's a difficulty with finding the person, or actually there is a paramedic providing information or instructions to the call or or the the victim Unfortunately, while the ambulance arrives. If I'd say one thing about e commerce, it's all about data. It's really, really very statistically driven. I'm

Dusty Rhodes  07:38

fascinated to hear how you say that the calls to emergency lines are very predictable. It's not anything I would have expected you to said, Can you give me an example of that kind of predictability on on a call? Well,

Michael Kelly  07:51

I can tell you that the this if you like what I would call the safest time of the week, is about 1030 on a Tuesday morning. And basically how I would rationalize it is that everybody has either gone to work, or they've gotten they're already in school, or haven't gotten out of bed yet. But they're not going anywhere. Because actually the chief determinant of nine on calls, believe it or not, is weather. If the weather is bad, we'll get more calls. Now, that doesn't mean that more people are necessarily out and about, it just means that they're more likely to get themselves into a spot of bother more likely to have a car accident, they're more likely to trip, they're more likely to slip. And obviously, the more severe the weather becomes, the more accidents that are likely to have. Ironically, even though there are probably fewer fewer people out in the boat. The other way of looking at it is that and I suppose unfortunately, and this is not unique to our but in most countries in the world, Friday nights and Saturday nights are where people get themselves into the most trouble, probably the most severe trouble. And it's it's when response times by the emergency services tend to backup a bit. Now, I would say that emergency services are built around the peace. But during busy periods, there's always going to be some sort of a of a wait. But the job of Ecosse is to somehow ease the path through to the emergency services. And even if they are busy, and they're not in a position to answer that particular emergency call that we will do a decision to reassure the caller make sure that they don't title because, again, in a panic I think a lot of people's instinct is I'll hang up and dial again. Well, if you do that, you'd go back to the beginning of the of the queue. So our advice is always just stick with us. Listen to the instructions. We'll get you there.

Dusty Rhodes  09:51

Can I ask you that as well about uptime? It's a phenomenal statistic. What is it? What is your uptime guarantee? Our uptime

Michael Kelly  09:58

guarantee as well, first and foremost, some people say, Oh, well, it must be 100%. Well, as an engineer, I know that nothing is ever 100%. So what we commit to contractually, and I don't think this is a state secret in our contract with government, but it is what we call five nines, 99.999%. Now, that's a very glib figure. But the truth is to make that work, we have to duplicate replicate quadruplicate systems, so that we've got a huge amount of redundancy in the various systems. Basically, no one issue can take out the entire platform. But the bigger challenge for us is that the system itself, we we, we need to maintain it, we need to patch software, we need to replace hardware, but it's it's like the It's like that old adage about the 747 in the air, we're changing the engines without landing the plane, we cannot say to the public, oh, we need to do a big job on E casts. So I'll tell you what, we're going to take it down nine o'clock on Friday, but we'll be back on Monday morning. That doesn't work. So there's never a good time for us to do maintenance. So therefore we do, we're constantly working on the system round the clock, and making sure that our change control is absolutely state of the art engineering was so that, even if we do make a mistake, or if we have a problem, we can roll back without anybody realizing that there was ever a problem in the first place.

Dusty Rhodes  11:31

It sounds like you have your system and then the backup for the system and then a backup for the backup system. And then a backup backup for the backup system, which you know, I'm delighted to hear that but from an engineering perspective, can you give me an example of the kind of infrastructure that you have in place? Okay,

Michael Kelly  11:47

yes, we have two operator centers. So this is where call takers can take calls. We also have connections to them, they can also work from home, which is also part of our contingency in case, we have big storms or something like that. We have two data centers, we have to backup operator centers. And we have to backup data centers, all interlinked using multiple carriers by multiple telecoms companies. Some people think one, once they hear that BT operate this, that it's all BT telecommunications links in between all of the sites. And with that number of sites, it gets incredibly complex to make sure that we've got redundant paths, and resilient links and so on. No, we actually use every telecoms provider in the state. So we use ESB telecoms, we use IE Nash, we use air, we use BT in all honesty, and a couple of other players as well. And we use a variety of even within those telecommunications networks, a variety of different telecommunications protocols and techniques, so that we're not reliant on just one protocol, like IP or something like that. We have we have backups, little backups.

Dusty Rhodes  13:06

And tell me about the engineers that are in the organization because engineers play a very important role within the cancer organization, what kind of problems that they have to solve on on a regular basis, I

Michael Kelly  13:17

suppose the basis would be that they would be all IT specialists with a very heavy emphasis on telecommunications as well. But on top of that layered in, they would have skills in in software, but also a very, very good working knowledge of handsets, particularly mobile phone headsets. And you must remember as well that we've got to be able to support calls the highest level with the highest bandwidth that we could get from the humblest, oldest Nokia phone that somebody only uses once or twice a year, all the way up to the latest Apple and Samsung handsets. The other thing that we need to watch out for is software changes on the handsets, sometimes inadvertently, depending on the manufacturer. And I won't mention any names. But sometimes issues creep in with regard to emergency calls, that were actually designed to help the more ordinary run of the mill, cause a good example of a of this year was it was in the, let's say, the Android sphere. But it had an impact on all manufacturers of Android handset. So it wasn't a particular manufacturer, a change was introduced. So that if you picked up your Android handset irrespective of make if you pressed a number of times on the side and I don't want to specify the number for obvious reasons. If she pressed a button on the side of the phone a number of times it would automatically make an emergency call. Now that generated over about a year. I don't want to put a finger on it either but a shoe huge number of silent calls, calls that should never have been made. Because people didn't know when they might notice that that evening when they pick up their phone, and they see all these 112 calls, and that that was just basically down to a software change that was designed to help other issues within within the phone. As emergency services, we don't want it to be too easy to make emergency calls, we want it to be delivered. Okay? Because otherwise, you can have a situation where, you know, people literally walking down the road with the phone in the back of their jeans in their back pocket. It can it can ring emergency services. So it was well intentioned, but it went wrong. I suspect that problem generated probably a billion calls worldwide. Wow, it would have affected every country. Well, what I can say is because because of our engineers, I'm one in particular, I think we were probably the first country to identify what the problem was. And then in conjunction with, say, our colleagues and other in other European countries, and we do work very, very closely together. And because, as I say, dealing with human beings who do tend to behave in the same way, they use the same sorts of equipment to interact with emergency services. If we see a problem in one country, 10 to one, you're gonna see it in every other country. So we do cooperate very, very closely. So that's probably the best recent example that I can give you. I

Dusty Rhodes  16:28

don't want to dwell on this because it's over, fingers crossed. But when COVID hit, that was an emergency that was developing so fast, and everybody just had to run with it. I'm sure E. CASS was no exception. And everybody was told to work from home. How did you handle that problem?

Michael Kelly  16:44

Well, right up to that point, that was the middle of March and in that year, and I can't remember which year it is now, because it's all a blur. But up to that point we didn't have working from though there was never any requirement for us. And in fact, if I'm honest, Our preference would be to have people working in centers, because all the technology is there. And they have access to engineers. They have it. They're working in centers, which are designed to work 24/7 have generators, if there's a power outage, and so on, which is completely unlike our own homes. So I think it was a Thursday. And we said right, we need to build a remote working as solution. So we brainstormed on Thursday afternoon, we had a prototype on the Friday morning. We proved the prototype Friday night. And we built it or productionize it on Saturday and Sunday. And the first calls were taken from home live calls, not test calls, Monday afternoon. Now, I will be the first one to say that, you know, we work in in BT, which is, you know, really as an engineering lead company, I think if I had put out a request, let's develop that capability in normal time, it probably would have taken six months, because we would have gone through all of the things that you have to do in terms of testing. And, and so I'm not to say that we didn't do all that we just did a hell of a lot quicker, which much, much more focus. But we then moved over to a situation where very, very quickly, I think probably 70% of calls were taken from home. The other thing that we had to do, of course, is that staff were used to working with a workstation rather than a laptop, so would have had a purpose built PC, essentially in old money on the desk in front of them. So we had to we've we've about 6570 people taking calls around 24/7. So we had to procure 70 laptops plus spares at a time when everybody else was looking for laptops. Now luckily, I was able to pull in a few favors and BJs a big company. So we were able to get you know, access to certain stocks and so on. But that was the other worry, you know, it's one thing to get the technology right. But then are you actually will you have the tools to use. And I think that's probably where a lot of companies organizations probably slipped up well meaning in a well meaning manner, they were able to get the technology to do what they want, but it just kind of fell off the last part.

Dusty Rhodes  19:18

That was an amazing feat. And all I can think of is as you tell that story is this is why we need engineers in the world. Boom, boom, boom, problem solved. Tell me aside from COVID, because that is an exceptional circumstance. What would you say was the was the second biggest emergency that you've had to deal with in your time?

Michael Kelly  19:35

Well, I did say before that the biggest determinant of emergency calls, particularly when it gets out of that predictability phase is weather. And I will think back to the various storms that we've had on this one back in 2016. We've had some years where we've had maybe one or two kind of hurricane type storms and then over years we We've had maybe nine or 10 success weekends, where we've had really, really bad storms, that has an effect on the public because that, you know, there's going to be more accidents, even if they don't leave the house, they might fall down the stairs, and that that still creates challenges. But what it meant was the weather was so bad on these occasions. And don't forget that we had not got home working, or remote working available at that stage, we still needed to get people in sites. So what we did was we increased the number of sites. And that's when we, in addition to our two permanent sites, we brought in we built contingency centers, so that the centers were actually closer to staff. And then the other thing was, with great cooperation from our staff, I have to say, we, we said, Well, look, we might, we may have to work longer shifts, but we will put you up, we may even put you up in in centers, right with sleeping bags. Now actually, as it turned out, we didn't we didn't really have to go that far. But what we did do was we would put staff up in hotels next door, so that they didn't have to go home. And our only ask of them was look, bring a bag, we'll bring it back for, you know, five days or a week, we really don't know how long this is gonna go on. But we will, you know, a bit of, I suppose bit of thought goes into us while it's stressful at the time, and you think, Oh, how are we going to solve this problem? Nothing is impossible, if you set your mind to it. And that, you know, genuinely is our mantra is has to be that way. We can't just give up. So I think I think that would probably be the the other the other issue. Obviously, we've had technical challenges over the years. But generally, through a combination of backups, and so on, we've been able to overcome that. And the great Irish public wouldn't have even been aware, Michael,

Dusty Rhodes  21:51

you're very much at the cutting edge. If you want of technology. I hate that phrase. But you're dealing with Watson now, which is fantastic. And you're probably looking at what's coming in the near future, which is fantastic. Let me take you back, though. To many, many moons ago, when you worked with post gem, which was a section of on post. And I love I only learned this recently post gem stands for Global electronic messaging. That's how far back we go and pre email all those are pre texts or pre SMS or whatever, maybe. Can you describe to me what post jam was but also of key interest, the set up between them and Ireland's first internet service provider at the time? Ireland online?

Michael Kelly  22:31

Okay, yeah, well, it's a whole subject in itself. But to start with, with post, Jim, it was a subsidiary of, of unparsed, actually decentral as a as a separate company, abroad in people with I suppose a certain amount of it or telecommunications, background plus a lot of marketing, because it was essentially what it was set up to do was to try and develop a new market. And if you if you could cast your mind back to the very late 80s 1989. This is pre mail, or builds went in the post. And that's where on POS came in. But thanks to the foresight of of a couple of very, very clever people, even then they realize that hard copy as it used to be referred to probably wasn't going to be there forever. And the on POS needed to start thinking about the future. And it was it was certainly the first, I think, a pulse office in the whole world that started to think that way. It was very, very pioneering. But when we got the was all very well saying it was electronic mail was very much in its infancy. I think I had you know, I had used it in my previous IT career to probably, you know, communicate with a few other people and maybe with some some vendors, but it wasn't in general use. And it was also quite slow. You know, you didn't get an email instantly wait like we did today. But once post jam got up and running. Initially, I think our first service was people could send in communications like bills or RS circulars electronically. And then we would actually print them and put them into a letter. So it was electronic to hard copy. But it's amazing. That sounds ridiculous now, but it actually got people into the idea. The other thing that we introduced was Electronic Data Interchange, which was electronic to electronic. And basically that was sending purchase orders and invoices from one company to another, completely electronically. And using a set of standards that worked very well. But as become the precursor of what we know now, I would say even pretty much like if you were to go on the various well known websites and order books or whatever, whatever it is definitely the precursor of that. And then also the third service that we we introduced and was pretty much the precursor of electronic mail today. At the only difference was that it was it was a connection rather than to the intranet. It was connected to an A network of other nodes around the country around the world. And only people who were subscribed to those those services or don't note could send and receive emails, it wasn't completely open system like we have today, where you can send an email to someone you don't know or you've never you've never met. So with those three services in mind, they began to pick up traction, and people began saying, okay, and actually, we had a lot of visits from other post offices interested in what we were doing, and then to underlie that. And I suppose maybe this is something that I brought to it, I realized that in order to really make this work, we needed to have our own network at that time, due to legislation and licensing. And so really, the underlying telecommunications had to be telecom era, which as we know, was the monopoly back then. So we got the first value added services license, a value added services license allowed you to offer value ads over a telecom service. But then we went, we said, right, we will build our own data network, our own packet switched network. And that actually became the precursor to our our cooperation with Arvind online. So to answer your second question, Arland online, or IOL, was becoming very, very successful in the in the marketplace, there was a real appetite there for communications. And I think also as well, because we have a certain amount of time, we had a certain amount of insight into the demographics, Ireland was becoming more open. People were emigration, there was a lot of immigration, people needed to communicate. And, you know, instant communication was was what it was all about. And bear in mind, mobile phones were still expensive to you know, to ring somebody for five minutes, or even landlines for five minutes. Whereas electronic mail was free. And you could send as much as you wanted, you could set it say as much as you wanted to mommy or daddy, there were there were no limitations.

Dusty Rhodes  27:10

It was a huge time of change around then, and very exciting. And it was kind of like Ireland was dragging itself out of the darkness of the 70s and the 80s. And all of a sudden, I mean, we we were winning Eurovision, every year, that's what I remember the 90s. All right, and it meant we could do anything. And then we have the football. And we were actually at a World Cup, we could do anything. And then you start talking about this electronic mail, email and mobile phones were becoming more common, as you say. They were very expensive. It was an amazing time. And then Ireland online. I was working with to FM at the time. And I remember, you know, kind of because we were in the younger end of RT, it was myself and Barry Lange. were kind of interested in this internet thing and what it was all about. And then we started incorporating it as part of our programs. And then everybody then wanted an email address. And of course, we were using@aol.ie every day on on the air. And the story goes is that Bertie Ahern, who was T shock at the time was listening. And he went, What's that? I want one. And so that's that's it from my point of view in that I thought those kinds of Eddie, very early days of the Internet were quite heavy. What how was it from your point of view introduced the internet to the great Irish public.

Michael Kelly  28:23

It was really, really exciting times. I mean, very exhausting, very, very long days. But we were we really were making it up as we went along. You know, the pioneers and IOL Colin Greeley. And Barry Flanagan like we're real flagbearers for the whole thing. But what I suppose what we wanted to do was try and let them get on with what they were good at doing. And I think what post Shem brought to it was we were pretty good. We mastered the art of infrastructure, and also how we could we could post modems and so on out these days, you'd probably say, well, modem, why would you use a modem. But, you know, back then, the Internet was about getting a CD on that stuck to a magazine, and you'd stuck that CD into your PC. And it gave you a certain amount of software, which allows you to control a modem, which you have to use the home telephone line. And we it was it was quite slow, but it worked. In order to make IOL work and make it successful. We needed to have modems all over the country, because what we discovered very, very quickly was that someone in in Cork or Limerick, probably some of our listeners would say for obvious reasons, they wouldn't be prepared to die of Dublin. They wanted a local number. They wanted a local cork number or Limerick number and so on and so forth. And I think at the end, we ended up with 26 points of protests around the country in order to take in those calls. And we also had to build a fairly substantial backbone, network to form through all of that internet traffic, I think what made it even more exciting was that we just could not have anticipated the demand. As fast as we could put in infrastructure, it was gobbled up. So much so that I was dealing with. And at that time, most of them would have been Silicon Valley based companies that provided the equipment, they wanted to send us the very latest equipment, we'd be the first in Europe to use it, they might only have one or two been used maybe buy AT and T or America Online in the States, they could see that something was really, really happening here. And it was it was growing really, really quickly. And the other thing that we were able to do was because nobody had any real experience in this, we were recruiting from the universe, universities, just graduate engineers, guys that we guys and girls that we taught, you know, which would really enjoy this. And it just threw them in at the coalface and learn what needed to be done. And I can't say there was a plan, the plan probably changed every week. But it worked. And it it's it's one of the things that I'm proud of Southern way all career, I have to say. Because the internet now we moved from a situation where I think when when we went on post Bosch, Ireland online with post Sham, I think we was about 14,000 subscribers. Now there were a couple of other voted, but there was probably probably 25,000 Internet subscribers in the whole country. And that was in 9697. Now everybody use that ubiquitous, you couldn't do without it?

Dusty Rhodes  31:37

Do you have a particular story you'd like to share from that time?

Michael Kelly  31:42

Well, I do, I don't know whether it's a good story or not. But one of our struggles in Ireland online particularly was the connections to the internet. These days, people don't need to really understand how it all works. But back then we needed a connection to the outside world. And bandwidth are the pipes from Dublin to the rest of the world. Were extremely expensive. One stage I we had a 1.5 megabit connection to the outside world. Nowadays, people have, you know, I think over a gigabit into my home, just my house. So we were doing everything that we possibly called we were trading bandwidth with various providers, talking like in lots of money, like it was getting into the millions of pounds at the time. So one of the things that we did do was we we did a deal with a satellite company. Now everybody talks about satellite and you know, watch what Elon Musk is doing. And there's lots of satellite companies. But we had a headquarters on them Earth's for terrorists. At that time, we got special permission. And we did lots of licenses, because nobody was doing it to put this great big, huge satellite dish up on the roof. So Barry Flanagan and I got it working. And we said that we will look let's let's try it, you know before and we'll have it to ourselves, right? See what we can do. So Barry and I were up on the roof. This is a six story roof, where we probably really shouldn't debate to be perfectly honest. But we we plugged in a laptop into the back of it, just to see how it will perform. And it was it was going great and we tried different things. And then I pitched my arm and the laptop fell off the wall or word straight down onto the ground. It's fair to say it didn't work after that. Luckily, it didn't land on everybody. I

Dusty Rhodes  33:37

could just i All the picture in my head is just a pair of you looking. And then there's pure silence. jaws dropped pure silence. It

Michael Kelly  33:45

was it was the longest, probably 15 seconds of my life. Because a bit like Icarus, when things are going badly, time just seems to slow down. A

Dusty Rhodes  33:56

lot of what you're talking about Michael is you're talking about introducing the Internet to Ireland and satellite connections and a one five point 1.5 meg for the entire country. It's ridiculous when you think about it. Now. Another thing that we talk about all the time here, and we're very blase about it because we're one of the huge biggest centers in the world for it with Facebook and Google, Microsoft and data centers. They're everywhere. It takes 20% of the power of the country in Ireland goes just on data centers. You are the man who installed Ireland's first ever data center Tell Me More

Michael Kelly  34:32

probably some politicians would prefer that I had not done this but it yes it is true. I joined I became part of East that telecom as supposed to finish the the post Jeremiah Well story was sold to Dennis O'Brien, you may have heard of. So I moved into to ESA telecom and you know, there was there was a bit of a change around responsibilities and so on. So Oh, Dennis, as, as he did said, Well, look, are you looking for a challenge? Foolishly? I said, Yes. And he said, Well, look, one of the things that we need to do this this thing, data data centers, that's that's going to, that's going to be the next big thing. And I'll be honest, which I was skeptical myself, or really did what he said, but think your demand for this because, you know, it's datacenters are what's going to drive the internet. And I think up to that point, I certainly thought I didn't have as foresight sure, is foresight was that the internet needs lots of power and lots of space disk space, and it needs performance, these availability. And that that basically is a one line summary description of a data center. So he said, right, got to do this. So he said, I think we could get a building out and citywest, which was only really been built at that stage. Now, of course, a very mature business. But back then, it was it was nothing and it had no fiber or any of the telecommunications into its, which was what we really needed. So I think he said this to me at the end of November. And he said, I needed up and running at seven months. Now, I hadn't even seen the building when he said this, and the building was only half built. What that was the challenge. And it was, it probably was the most stressful period of my career. When we did it, by the end of June, with a very, very small team. We built a data center, it was the first of its kind, I did go and have a look at a couple of data centers in the States. I think we brought back some good ideas about it, particularly around availability, we hadn't been thinking about that. So generators was something that we spent a lot of money on. And we also had to fight tooth and nail to get telecommunications in from the various providers so that we could connect these these data service servers. And we got it up and running. I think we had our first customers running probably the month before, and probably about 18 months later was false.

Dusty Rhodes  37:07

Michael, I could chat to you all day. So just let me wrap up one or two little questions about new technologies. Because like everything you're saying, you you literally have been at the development end of everything right throughout your career. So AI is continuous learning. This is what I want to ask you about. I mean, it's not vital for engineers working telecommunications that don't mean is that something nicer is CPD something you should do? Is it vital for working in telecommunications in areas like that.

Michael Kelly  37:37

It's absolutely vital. I think when I started out my career, there was probably a very much of an emphasis on third level education. And it had, it definitely had its at its place. But however you were trained, or whatever you were qualified, and it was seen as a means to promotion. I think organizations are definitely a lot flatter now. And if you want to be really valuable to an organization may be having that master's degree or even a primary degree is not going to help you it gives you some of the tools to learn and maybe to be curious. But I think you know, CPD, getting short courses and technology is really, really valuable, you become much more valuable to an organization.

Dusty Rhodes  38:20

So it's going to ask you was how do you do? I mean, how have you done that CPD just to keep up to because you do you're right, you get your degree and you get on the first rung of the ladder. And that's it, your degree is worthless. After that. You need to keep educating yourself keeping up to speed How did you do at work in such a high level?

Michael Kelly  38:36

Well, the 1990s that is certainly the late 80s 19 1990s, even though we had the internet, and it was still an emphasis on books, and you would you would buy books, and you would learn that way. And you would experiment. Then something changed in the in the vendors, the people who sold the routers or the routers and all this telecommunications equipment, they realized that it was changing very, very quickly. And some of those got into training themselves. Good examples would be Cisco, with their certification schemes, relatively short courses, but they weren't internationally recognized. And I saw people so well, not only would it make them better at their job, but it made them internationally market. So if you know one of our young engineers, and suddenly did decide to go off to Australia or America, they had a recognised qualification. But I think that that's probably brought us up to maybe the 2010s. Now, I think it's it's almost going back. I think you do need the hard qualifications, like the masters and the bachelor's degrees. And so with the speed of change is so much that by the time of course comes out and more importantly is recognized. It's nearly out of date. So you've got to become a sponge. So to answer your question, I think I went from a very much a kind of a rigid book learning type of individual because that's what I was. That's what I was taught to maybe true the experience and so on that you've got to have your antenna, working all the time, operate as a sponge, soak up as much information as you possibly can. Some of its useful, some of it might actually lead you in a different direction that maybe didn't even know was was there. But that curiosity is something that that makes you valuable to the organization. And the more valuable to an organization, the more successful you will become.

Dusty Rhodes  40:32

Let me ask you a humdinger of an awful question. Just to wrap it up. Right. Right, because we haven't mentioned AI. I'm just interested for you who has been so successful, seeing things with potential and then seeing how they could work in the future and then successfully getting them there. You're looking at AI for the last year, we do you think AI will have us in 10 years time,

Michael Kelly  41:00

I think in 10 years time, I think it'll be slower than we thought everybody likes thick. Obviously, there's a lot of hype, I see it first and foremost, in the next 10 years as maybe an eight in your ear, whatever it is that you're doing. Say it could be anything from working in a contact center, it could be a programmer trying to write a difficult bit of code, almost that kind of help or coach in the ear. I see it as specially in them hectic areas. I don't know much about us, if anything at all. But a good example to me would be something like air traffic control, right? If an air traffic controller were to miss something, there's enough technology out there that you know, by tracking people's eyes on the screen, that the AI or some system feeding AI could say, I think he's missed that vital piece of information. Or let I think I should whisper this piece of information in her ear. It sounds incredible Bush a lot of the things that AI can already do were incredible, even five years ago. So I on the one hand, I think it will be slower. But I really do see it as as eight, I do think it will be transformative as well in certain industries. I think the first area where it could really transform is in contact centers, because it AI should be able to deal with different accents, and should be able to deal with different languages, it will be building up databases and other types of bases that are going to apply. And with just the laws of physics, you're able to apply that at the speed of light, either to a screen or you know, to generate something that you call out in the air of somebody, it to me it it has to be transformative. I don't think it's something to be frightened of. That's something that really annoys me. It's like all technology. But I think back probably 200 years ago, when the steam engine was invented, there were probably people given out about that as well. And it wasn't the be all and end all the steam engine transformed into something else. And AI and time will transform into something again,

Dusty Rhodes  43:18

I often see AI as being like the early days of the Internet, which we both experienced in the in the 80s and 90s. And it was the wild west of the Internet back then. Whereas I think we're seeing the A it's the wild west of AI right now. Michael, unfortunately, we've run out of time if you're listening and you'd like to find out more about Michael or some of the topics that we talked about today. There's some notes and link details in the description area of the podcast but for now, Michael Kelly, head of operations of the Emergency Call Answering Service at BT Ireland. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Michael Kelly  43:49

Not at all Dusty, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Dusty Rhodes  43:53

Do remember for advanced episodes of our Engineers Ireland podcast, more information on engineering across Ireland or career development opportunities, there are libraries of information on our website at engineersireland.ie. Also do share a podcast with a friend in the business just tell them search for Engineers Ireland in their podcast player. The podcast is produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland. Until next time from myself Dusty Rhodes. Thank you so much for listening. Take care

Today we find out how Irish engineers are attracting big foreign business, and how investing in personal development is just as beneficial for your own growth as it is for the sector.

Global investment is crucial to the economic wellbeing of Ireland, and there are still challenges the country needs to overcome to ensure continued success.

Our expert today is at the forefront of Ireland’s international business investments and believes our engineering sector has a lot of talent to offer. He is an engineer and CEO of IDA Ireland, Michael Lohan.

Listen below or on your podcast player!

THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

01:09 Michael’s Career

06:36 Working with tech, people and global supply chains

08:13 What the IDA does

10:03 The main investment sectors in Ireland

12:58 Challenges impacting foreign investment

16:28 The availability of STEM talent in Ireland

18:06 How Irish engineers stand out

23:13 Encouraging upskilling and continuous learning

26:19 Getting young people involved in STEM subjects

34:00 Expanding opportunities outside of Dublin

37:35 Advice Michael would give to a young engineer

GUEST DETAILS

Michael Lohan is the Chief Executive Officer of IDA Ireland as of April 2023. A key priority for Michael in his role as Chief Executive Officer is leading on the execution and delivery of IDA Ireland’s organisational strategy: Driving Recovery and Sustainable Growth 2021- 2024, which will be delivered through a focus on five pillars: Growth, Transformation, Regions, Sustainability, and Impact.

Michael joined IDA Ireland in 2003 and has held various management positions across multiple functions and has represented IDA in several fora including as a Board member on Digital Manufacturing Ireland, a governance member on the SSPC research centre for pharmaceuticals and also The Irish Medical Association (which is the business association within IBEC representing the medical devices and diagnostics sector).

Prior to joining IDA Ireland, Michael held several different positions including Manager for New Business Solutions with Nortel’s European Operations in Galway and a management role with IEC Electronics European Operations. Michael is an Engineering graduate with an MSc in Technology Management from the National University of Ireland, Galway and additionally is a graduate of the Berkley Executive Programme.

MORE INFORMATION

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/ 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

To learn more about iWish https://www.iwish.ie/

QUOTES

I can speak for myself, as an engineer, you're very much technically driven, but those softer skills, that acumen from a business perspective, are so so important. The more you can hone that, coupled that with your technical expertise, that's a formula for real success, for real growth and progression. - Michael Lohan

We have been very successful for the last decade plus in terms of FDI. In terms of economic prosperity in Ireland, our population is growing, our enterprise base, both foreign and indigenous have grown. That leads us to the challenges of success, our housing capacity, our infrastructure capacity. There are key elements that we have to continue to address and make sure that we have adequate plans in place for the next generation of investment. - Michael Lohan

We in Ireland seem to be leading at the front edge of that technology, of that innovation, of that deployment, and I think that comes down to the skill base that we have, and within that is the engineering resources that's available to us. - Michael Lohan

I would encourage anyone, no matter where you are in your career, to continue to learn. In fact, I am no different, I have to continue to be curious, I have to continue to look to where I can add additional strengths to my offering. - Michael Lohan

I think industry needs to help encourage young people into STEM, because the more we can show that there's a path here in terms of career, that there's a rewarding, fulfilling and diverse career that you can get  through STEM subjects.  - Michael Lohan

Learn as quickly as you can how to interact and engage with others because the your success is going to be based on how you engage with your peers, how you can influence and negotiate. The more you can hone that earlier in your career, the more you can benefit from it later on. - Michael Lohan

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Michael Lohan  00:00

I think there's a few things that actually make Irish engineers and Irish talent stand out. You know, I hear this directly from law, the CEOs and CTOs applying companies. And that's what we have in Ireland, we have that uniqueness in us that we actually see problems as a real opportunity. And we don't take the status quo is the way things should be always done, we actually can see different means of delivery. And more importantly, we actually can bring goals to fruition and implement them.

Dusty Rhodes  00:27

Hello there. My name is Dusty Rhodes, you're welcome to AMPLIFIED the Engineers Journal podcast. In this episode, we're about to dive into engineering and business development and see how both are shaping the economic landscape of the country. We'll be looking at the challenges and opportunities facing the engineering sector in Ireland, the importance of regional growth and how to future proof your own career. Our guest is a seasoned engineer, he has 30, hugely successful years under his belt, working with some leading companies and now finds himself as the CEO of the IDA. It's a delight to welcome Michael Lohan and Michael, how are you?

Michael Lohan  01:04

I'm good dusty, Thank you very much.

Dusty Rhodes  01:09

Michael, you're a qualified engineer just kind of set the scene for us. What strand of engineering Did you qualify?

Michael Lohan  01:16

I am indeed Yeah, so my primary degree is in electronic engineering and so straight electronics. And it's funny to the just last week, actually, I was part of the A to you launch of the Illumina network where I actually studied in cycle RTC as it was in the day and then transferred to finish my degree actually in Galway again RTC so given away some part of my of my age and in that element. But I think what's important is part of that is as I was fortunate that I was part of a group where a group of friends, but in the College Network, we're actually at this move transition from Galway, or sorry, from Slager to Galway. So we actually saw that progression through our education system, which I'm probably you're very tight third for that, you know, we saw it as a means of movement. Yes, we also saw as a means of a new scenery from a social perspective. But more importantly, we were able to advance our careers and, and so that's my background. And, and I continue to suppose along those technical areas, as I looked across different aspects of, of my career and my educational because as I've gone through, I suppose my career, I've added other areas, for example, I was one of the first cohort that went through the certification at the time for health and safety at work, actually true UCD, which was delivered remotely, if one would think what that what that was 20 years ago, which so as as challenges come forward in my career, I always, always talked about, okay, is there an area where I need to maybe upscale or rescale, or reposition myself, and that was one such add on the same project management. And then I went back to do a master's in technology management as well. And then you I call myself a continuous journey. I think around along that route.

Dusty Rhodes  02:54

You mentioned that you did it remotely. And it was 20 years ago, you know, this day and age when we're all just so used to video calls and accessing things. And and I'm not going to electronic get the recording and kind of all this the know, how was it done remotely. 20 years ago,

Michael Lohan  03:10

when I was actually doing this, it was done remotely and that he was delivered into the ER was the default trading center in Atlanta. And because they had the technology, and actually the lectures were broadcast, so we actually had to go to at loan. So you physically had to, but it meant you didn't have to travel to Dublin, for example. At the time, I was working in Longford. So it was a 3540 minute track across in the morning, it was ideal. And what you had was you were the cohort there, they're probably 25 or 30 people in that class all from the Midlands region who actually could attend this lecture which has been delivered live from from Dublin. So we that's where we spent our days in that. So it was a really good it, I suppose initiative at the time, because it opened up that opportunity that's effectively you could do your do your studies, why not haven't actually moved geographical location for the day or two? I was involved on a weekly basis.

Dusty Rhodes  03:59

So let's after you qualified to go into the business, did you do a lot of hands on engineering? Or did you kind of go straight for management fairly fast?

Michael Lohan  04:06

Yeah, it's it's, it's a great question. Because when I actually started, I started in very much in a technical role. So electronics, so attend this story to others, as well as that's actually I started in the printed circuit board manufacturing business. So actually, what we are we did use was pioneer hifi system. So things that actually people now are actually coming back to, again, a number of generations later so so we actually done all the printed circuit board and circuitry and an assembly for Pioneer hifi systems at the time. So that's actually where a star has a very much technically driven, you're looking at the technology board from from the product perspective and also from a process perspective. And I was fortunate because I started in the company that was relatively small in scale in Ireland, you know, a couple 100 people. So actually you're asked to multitask and do different roles. So all of a sudden you had to wear different hats. You had to be the technical product expert. You also have to be the process expert you had To help put efficiencies, you have to help with improvements. And with that, I actually started to move into more in engineering, but I had an engineering management. And it was fortunate, I suppose I had talked those up. And I was given those opportunities, number one, and secondly, that I was able to take them because what it did then is it actually gives you experience in terms of people management, you know, in terms of assessing projects is assessing technologies. So what brought you to a different sphere, I suppose in terms of just a technical element. And, and at that point, and actually, after four or five years of, of your of that experience, I actually moved to a very large multinational company called Nortel Networks, large telecommunications company will be known globally around the world at that time. And if I'm honest, the few years I spent at Nortel Networks from 1999, to 2002, probably where they were the years that's actually formed me in terms of my business acumen. Because at that stage, Jenna was put into a global environment, global supply chains, you know, the, if you want to call it the complexities and the politics that comes with your multinationals. And you had two choices, you had to learn very quickly, or as you had to adapt even faster. And that's what you have to do. And I think that's where maybe the strength of my background of, you know, engineering, practical, logical, you could take the technical elements, you could bring them together, you could understand how supply chain works. And then you could work with people and bring people with you on that journey. So, so I think they those formative years, were critically important in terms of making, if you want to call it that transition from the purely technical into a managerial leadership role over that period.

Dusty Rhodes  06:36

Do you think engineers are kind of I don't want to say born with but let you when you study at college, do you think it just kind of gives you a bit of a systems way of thinking, which means that you were then able to handle anything from technical to people to global supply chains?

Michael Lohan  06:52

Yeah, well, you know, I think I think there's a few times I think the mindset of engineers is, you know, your logical and your and your solutions orientated as well, which I think is important. And, you know, it's a bit like, there's always challenges. But the great thing about challenges is there's always a means for resolution. Now, it may not be optimal, but you can, we can always get there. And the question is how we get there. And I suppose what you learn, and what I've learned through my career is that solutions don't come in one form. And they certainly don't come just being a technical solution or a process solution, the more than likely have a hole of business requirements. And that, and that involves you all being human centric, people orientation. So the, the, you know, that's where, probably from an engineering discipline point of view, and I think, thankfully, we've probably seen more of that happening to our engineering, courseware and education over the last number of decades, making sure that there's that connected piece in terms of how you actually make this work for people, for the workforce for the business, over and including the technical aspects are so important. And it's something that I think that, you know, I can speak for myself, as an engineer, everything was about and you're very much technically driven, those softer skills. Those that acumen from a business perspective, are so so important. I think, the more you can hold that on top of that with your technical expertise. That's a formula for real success and for real growth and progression.

Dusty Rhodes  08:13

Well, listen, speaking of success, you are the buck stops at your desk in the IDA. That's a big organization to be a part of earlier in the series. I was talking to Leo Clancy, I'm sure you're aware of him. He's another engineer. He's the CEO of enterprise Ireland. You're kind of similar, but you're completely the opposite. If it can you just describe the differences between enterprise Ireland and the ID because we all hear about them every day. But yeah, it can be confusing.

Michael Lohan  08:38

Yeah, well, of course Leo is a good is a former colleague here of ideas lattice, I've worked with Leo and nor Leo very well, and really, really good guy. So I suppose from from ideas perspective, we focus on foreign direct investment. So the companies we engage with are all foreign owned. So it's our role to go and first of all, to attract them to Ireland and the benefits of coming to Ireland, and then to help them to sustain and grow here and diversify their business and so forth. Whereas Leo and his colleagues in enterprise Ireland, are exclusively focused on indigenous Irish companies, helping them to grow startups, and indeed, globally, so. So if you want to call it we're both part of the Department of Enterprise and trade. So we sit in the same parent department. There's a lot of crossover between us and collaboration between us. But we're very clear. And our focus in this enterprise, Ireland is indigenous. And we look after the FDI side, and then of course, how we can actually merge those two elements together in terms of spillover in terms of global sourcing. So for example, there's lots of excellent indigenous Irish companies that are now embedded in another core to multinationals in terms of their supply chain, and no more salt and, and engineering space. You know, and we look ahead, whether it's in terms of construction, design, deliver your product and process, you know, all our ingrained, which was really excellent Irish indigenous companies across not just the FDA copies here in Ireland. But across our global networks, which is which is incredible to see.

Dusty Rhodes  10:04

I think when you're thinking about foreign investment into this country, brands that come to mind are apple and Marianas Google and all of the big air tech companies from around the world built primarily the states. What kind of other sectors invest in

Michael Lohan  10:17

Ireland? Yeah, so you're correct we have three sectors extra four sectors which are job predominantly yes was very heavy investors from an STI perspective so So technology is one so you know, that ranges from you mentioned apple at one level your to Intel, and you know, whichever are significant investor and capital investor garland so, so ranges from everything from hardware and software to unplowed to big service providers across the telecom industry. So you have dashboard gamblers from a technology and consumer and content, you know, the large platform companies go there every day. And of course, that we have a very strong sector and as well as international financial services. So, so I think the establishment of the IFC in Ireland, you know, was was was groundbreaking and was formed with the Oh, that was great foresight at the time of the Irish of the Irish government to actually have an alternative to London or indeed to Frankfurt. And we've seen the benefit of that in terms of what the industry that we've grown here that that Ireland now is, is a real location of strain for international financial services. The third sector, obviously, then his life sciences and your that's biopharma pharma, and medical device deal, massive fuel and you know, in terms of investment, both in terms of capital, it regionally spread it's in virtually every county in Ireland has a life sciences, either company or sub supplier associated with it. And then they're highly innovative and and invest in in strong r&d and under really good collaborators. And then I suppose our our fourth segment, then is what we call our high value engineering segments. So that can vary from anything from automotive industry, to you know, Leeper, you're producing large cranes from Ireland. So you have a very broad diverse of engineering companies that sit in that, but the key to them is that they're all innovative based, looking to the future looking to the to the established or r&d centers, here's what

Dusty Rhodes  12:07

I'm delighted to hear that one of them is high value engineering sector, not that I'm hanging my hat anywhere in particular, but can you give me an example, from the last whatever, six months or a year of a project that came in?

Michael Lohan  12:18

Yeah, so we've had, we've had a few. And so if you look at Lufthansa in in challenge, actually bringing in a significant MRO activity there. And in terms of servicing, we've had quite a few actually supporting, as I mentioned, the semiconductor industry as well, which is growing, and, and obviously, growing our EO across Europe. And if you look at the sub supply base, that that exists for the life sciences industry, you know, world leading companies here supporting, as I mentioned earlier, not just to Irish sites, but internationally supply indoor sites with with our products and services. And that's been key. So we've been very fortunate in Ireland to be able to attract and support and maintain those, those entities here.

Dusty Rhodes  12:58

On the opposite end of success, you know, because it's not all easy. What kind of challenges does the IDA face them when it comes to securing investments, one of the problems you encounter?

Michael Lohan  13:09

Yeah, so the landscape for FDI is, is intensely competitive. And, you know, sometimes it can be hard maybe for for everyone to understand this, that you'll well we go to compete for an investment in the sector, as I mentioned, the reality of it is, is that in most cases, you have competing geographies, and you know, in the four corners of the world, looking to win that same investment or to learn to see those investments in their jurisdiction. So, so at an international level, the competition actually has has probably intensified over the last 18 months or 24 months. And in particular, that's the how is that manifesting itself, it's manifesting itself in in the context of the industrial policies now being adopted, both within the US or within Europe, as well, and indeed, in the fairies has altered. So we're seeing a higher percentage, I suppose, urban center being offered in certain circumstances. And we've seen that today in such dire react in the US to the chips act that's being proposed in Europe. So that landscape has certainly changed. I think, from an Ireland perspective, we need to be conscious of that, as well. Of course, if we look locally, then we have to look at it as you know, our own, you know, we have been very successful for the last decade plus in terms of FDI, in terms in terms of economic prosperity in Ireland, in general, our population is growing, you know, our enterprise base, both foreign and indeed, indigenous have grown. And that leads us to I suppose we have, if you want to call it the challenges of success, and those challenges, as you know, they're well documented, you know, our housing capacity or infrastructure capacity to meet future growth. There are key elements that we have to continue to address and make sure that we have adequate plans in place for the next generation of investment.

Dusty Rhodes  14:59

Well, I mean, the housing crisis, as you said, is one of the things how do investors when they're looking at Ireland's because you need to house workers, they need accommodation. And it's so hard to find these days. How do investors look at those things?

Michael Lohan  15:11

Yeah, so I think what we're seeing from from investors is they're very aware of, of, let's call it the carrying capacity that Ireland has. But they're also very aware of the commitments from the state and from government in terms of resolving some of these elements. So you mentioned housing, and really look at housing, for example. And even even today's numbers, I think, from from a number of kommentarer, showed that you know, what, we are going to break 30,000 completions this year, which is really purchase really positive. The housing for all strategy is certainly key to that. I'd haven't done all of government approach. And as I said previously, I think what we're seeing now is an acceleration of abduct delivery, because as we see with our investment base at the moment, they're making decisions based on the next three, four and five year cycles of growth. And the housing for all strategies is, is really starting to show its momentum now. And I think that's given credibility to our offering. And even if we look at the last number of weeks, the number of announcements and investments that we've had publicly announced, you know, verify the fact that, you know, there's trust in our system that we can deliver, when we commit to delivering in terms of infrastructure, such as true housing, that we will, that will follow through. And I think that's what investors are confidence on. There's a trust that are low, but actually meet those demands.

Dusty Rhodes  16:28

Do you think that engineering as a subject in itself is an issue? Well, not an issue, but it is something that investors specifically consider but what's available here.

Michael Lohan  16:37

So I think you're correct, or there is actually a number of things that investors consider but but talent, uh, you know, and the availability of STEM graduates and STEM talent in particular, is particularly, it's particularly important. And while we were fortunate in Ireland, when we look at the statistics, in terms of our STEM graduates in terms of, first of all, the quantum, the quality, the diversity of of those STEM graduates are all positives. And then we also, of course, have the added bonus of being open an attractive location for for foreign graduates and indeed, talented individuals to come and be part of the ecosystem here in Ireland. So that's a very strong proposition that Ireland has to offer. And in some cases, almost a unique proposition that nit that isn't replicated around the world. And as I said earlier, we're fortunate in Ireland that if we look at the engineering disciplines that we have in Ireland, those core engineering disciplines that we have here are world renowned in terms of the quality in terms of delivery, at some of the companies that we have here, you're delivering, not just here in Ireland, but delivering internationally, that is a unique element. And I think, in the last two decades, in particular, from my time in IDA, that's been a marked, I suppose, differentiator between our proposition that was a decade ago to what our proposition is, today, we in Ireland are seem to be leaning at the front edge of that technology of that innovation of that deployment. I think that comes down to the skills base that we have, or when in doubt, I think is to engineering resources that's available to us.

Dusty Rhodes  18:06

And what is it? Do you think that makes Irish engineers stand out?

Michael Lohan  18:11

I think there's a few things that actually make Irish engineers and Irish talent stand out. Number one is I think we have an inherent curiosity. And we always want to strive to deliver and to improve. And, and you know, I hear this directly from our client companies, or our go to CEOs and CTC CTOs, applying companies, and that's the work but the workforce in Ireland is unique in terms of their ability to take complex issues, and to deliver them, you know, in a very simple manner, actually. So it goes back to that everything we talked about being solutions oriented is and I think what we have in Ireland, we have that uniqueness in us that we actually see problems as a real opportunity. And we don't take the status quo as the way things should be always don't we actually can can see different means of delivery. And more importantly, we actually can bring those to fruition and implement them. And I think that's what really sets Ireland apart in terms of that if you want to call it that human capital and intellect that we have from from an engineering and the process perspective,

Dusty Rhodes  19:15

quality people then might sum it up, but quality people come with quality price tags, how do we make ourselves competitive on the on the financial side?

Michael Lohan  19:23

Yes. So so you're correct, though. Quality doesn't it's not about being expensive. I think there's a cost associated quality and that cost brings value. And when we look at your if we think about the the workforce and activities that's happened in Ireland, you know, we have some we have products everything from if you want to call it almost disposable consumer products that are manufactured in Ireland, but are manufactured, highly automated, digitize so therefore the unit cost is controlled and managed so so that's where technology can come to the fore where expertise can come to the fore and the tinkers while the other side. Just remember that, you know, talented people bring new innovations and new products to market, as well. So So you have that balance between, you know, its value versus cost. But you also rice, you know, we also have to be mindful of competitiveness, because I go back to my earlier conversation, we have to compete. And, you know, not just greenfields, investments are competed for every investment is competed for, whether it's an expansion, whether it's a new mandate, all of those have to be competed for. So therefore, competitiveness and material, our competitiveness, and productivity is key to us.

Dusty Rhodes  20:33

It's a really good point. And I'm going to ask you this about the perspective of somebody who's working in engineering, and they're looking at their salary, or they want to move up the ladder or something like that, instead of looking at the dollar cost, or the euro cost, or whatever it happens to be, should you be kind of thinking about, well, what is the value that I'm bringing, rather than the price? So what everything you were saying there? Does it apply just as much to the human being?

Michael Lohan  20:57

When, you know, I think, let's be honest, our good friend, our Excel spreadsheets will only measure one dimension, which is cost. We're all familiar with that. Right? Yeah. And we could be subject to data. In fact, we have, I may have done it myself on a few occasions. But that's one measure, right. And when we go back to it, that can also we as Ireland, let's be honest, we've moved, as I said earlier, you're our our proposition in Ireland is very different now than it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago, our proposition is based on innovative products, innovative people delivering high quality and therefore bringing high margin and value to your business. And let's be honest, that doesn't come for free, nor show this, I think there's a value in that. And I think that's what you we have to assess and, and be conscious of is that, that ultimately, where that actually, if you want to call it where the rubber hits the road, for industry is when you see the investments, and you see the scale of investment and the brands that are investing in Ireland, it doesn't matter whether you're in life sciences, or in technology or in financial services, you know, those brands are investing here because they see value creation, they see impact on moral more so as wide as remember is, they're also seeing real leadership skills that they are developing in Ireland and leading from Ireland being deployed across their organizations globally as well. So so value comes in many different forms is not just product or service. It's also people as leadership as delivery as

Dusty Rhodes  22:21

I've noticed that myself a that, you know, kind of there's certain customers who are kind of they're watching the pennies are particularly when you're looking at a business to consumer kind of stuff, like you know, but when you're dealing with large brands and large multinational companies, I don't want to say that they're not penny pinchers. But it doesn't mean that they are Flowdock with it with with a cash they do watch where they're spending it, but they do value value, strain sentence, but I get what you're saying,

Michael Lohan  22:47

I get what you're saying. I'm not saying that they're going to spend every dime, they have rice to do that. Right. But But there's a difference between cost and value. And I think once if you end up in under cost argument, okay? That's that's never a good position. No matter who you are, or where you are, you have to be in the value side. And so the question is, how we bring value, what that value looks like, how you monetize it, how you deliver us? Yeah, that's

Dusty Rhodes  23:13

exactly what I'm hoping people might think about after listening to the podcast, and kind of continuing then on that strand of thinking, trend, thinking about people's careers and stuff like that. Do you think we need more emphasis on upskilling? And continuous learning within engineering?

Michael Lohan  23:29

I would think so. Yeah. And the bonus, I could say this from a point of my own experience. You know, it's a bit like you, you come through an engineering discipline or engineer, or course, and no, I gotta say this, no, it might be controversial, but we tend to do a lot of hours or more in, in our academic cycle, maybe in comparison to other others. So there's, it's a heavy, it's a heavy workload, that heavy commitment. And most people when they come out of getting their primary degree or whatever, are actually said, I'm done. Thanks very much. I don't want to see another another piece of textbook. But the harsh reality of it is I think what's important is if we want to evolve ourselves, the important thing is that there's always areas of new knowledge, we can add that I'm not saying you have to go back and do for Masters in the role. And because I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But what I do think there's lots of things you can add to her, either your to bring you personal development. And the case is, for example, if I go back to my own example, know, I mentioned Nortel Networks. As part of Nortel Networks, I got an opportunity to have some personal development rooted on the business school. It exposed me to elements of business models of economics, you know, which, if I'm honest, I really wasn't exposed to before and in any real sense. And that just gives me a different perspective on the world as well in terms of what makes the world tick, how things are connected together. And I would encourage anyone, no matter where you are in your career, and in fact, I'm no different today than I was 10 or 15 years ago. I have to continue to be curious I have to continue to look to Where I can I can, I suppose, add additional strengths to my offering. And that's something we should continue to do. And I think, as a population, we may not be the strongest advocates of lifelong learning. But we certainly should be. And I certainly would, because I think, as I look back myself at the moment, you know, and they don't all have to be, if you want to call it certified creditors, there's lots of areas you can do from a personal development bank's perspective. And of course, there's lots of other areas you can bring in, in terms of, you know, wellness, you know, diversity, there's lots of other elements that can complement your, your base skills, your technical skills, r&d, job leadership skills.

Dusty Rhodes  25:39

So are you telling me that Michael, that as the CEO of one of the biggest state agencies, with the idea that you at the top there are also thinking of upskilling and continuous learning for yourself?

Michael Lohan  25:48

Oh, I certainly am. Yeah, so so so that personal development plan is important that the challenge, which it is, of course, for all of us is carving out the time, and let's be honest, to do that. And that can be a challenge. And that's where you have to be disciplined, you know, uncertainly, that's something that I've you know, I have to do myself is I have to set out, realistically, one or two elements that I can do over probably a 24 or 36 month period, I'm not going to do any more than that. So I just need to be realistic and be targeted.

Dusty Rhodes  26:19

Tell me about STEM subjects, because you mentioned that earlier, and kind of one of the things that I hear in engineering is trying to get talent into the industry is just a nightmare. But trying to get female talent into the industry is is just crazy. Where are we? Where do we stand from your point of view? Where do we stand with, you know, kind of females getting involved with STEM subjects? What's working? What isn't?

Michael Lohan  26:43

Where do we stand? I think we're making progress. But we have a long way to go. And to be truthful, as the father of two daughters, I failed miserably myself. So I'm in no position to, to to give advice, despite all of that. And why is that? And because, you know, again, I think we have to show this as a viable and open alternative. And I think, you know, again, I can give you from my own experience of this, I think, is that that's where the challenge is, it can't be seen to be a barrier it can't be seen to for young girls, we have to, we have to give your positive exposure to STEM subjects earlier, you know, the biggest problem is fear, or the total fear against some STEM subjects, you know, and then if you think about maths, you know, as to you know, others maths versus nosh and all those elements. But you know, we have to get away from that. And we have to sort of try and break down those perceptions or barriers that are there for all right, and I think it's particularly and the pronounced for females. And I think that's something we need to do more of now there is some great work happening as well, we have to recognize that, like the Irish group, in terms of foundation, in terms of what they're doing is fabulous, I attended the session, transit was a pre COVID or post COVID. I forget, but but in car, and it was it was brilliant to see all of those young, young students, female students, as part of a massive, you know, event in Cork, where you had multiple number of companies that are showing off the opportunities or the career progression, we need to do more of that. And I think when I say we, I think industry needs to help in that context as well, because I think the more we can get those messages out there. And the more we can show that there's a path here in terms of career, but more importantly, that there's our rewarding, fulfilling and diverse career that you can get through STEM subjects, you can design the next product that might be save a patient's life, no at one level, or you could create you could be you're constructing a major a major investment project, or infrastructure project, or indeed a component that goes into some part of a spacecraft. So there's everything in between in terms of that opportunity. The question is, are we telling the story strong enough, often enough? And are we showing enough leadership to make that happen?

Dusty Rhodes  28:59

And if I haven't, right, what I wish do is they're more or less kind of telling that story of STEM subjects in a positive light specifically to young women who are coming up through the secondary system and trying to get them into the third level of education. That's correct. Yeah. Good, good. Good. I wish that it is there is a website. Absolutely. Check it out. Because as Michael says, they've done some amazing stuff. And if you have an engineering firm, you might get involved. Only good things are gonna come out of it. However, Michael, I'm not gonna let you off the hook. Because you did say that in this area. You're a failure. Why?

Michael Lohan  29:29

Yeah, why? Yeah. Well, it's, it's interesting. Well, you haven't met my two daughters. Yeah, yeah. But but you know, why? And like everything else in life, right? I think I can't, like I or any other parent for that matter. And I can only speak for myself, right? My kids are can't be declared it wants to be they have to have their own career. And all I could do was try and provide them with with the options though, the both have actually gotten into education, that element so hopefully mic preamps that bring the next generation forward in that context. But you know, it's a bit like, I always got that when you might like that, or you might be good to have, but I'm not. And I'm like, Well, you can be, here's how you deal with but again, I think a hometown to the influence that you have early on in your career. And from my own perspective, I know that that, you know, we can all remember probably, that that teacher who actually helped us through and medicine, or helped us to understand ourselves physics, or chemistry, or maths or whatever it might be, right r&d, that lecture that actually, you know, it was that high moments, no, I got it, right, we have to create more of those moments, I think, for all of our young people, and especially for females and stem,

Dusty Rhodes  30:40

the thing I find about being a parent is that there is no book or there's no right or wrong, and you just you kind of you don't just learn your way through it, you struggle your way through it, and try and learn as best as I like, I completely get what you're talking about, like, you know, and you can just kind of guide them. And once once they're off doing whatever it is they're happy with. That's that's the main thing. But now that you've got a little bit of experience under your belt, how would you have done it differently with your daughters to try and maybe get them interested? Would you have done anything differently?

Michael Lohan  31:07

Yeah, if I'm honest, probably could have, you know, so. So it, maybe I could have done more, you know, outside of that call the formal educational system to expose them more to the opportunity, if possibly, I suppose though, the context is like, it's a bit like, in my experience, see, and it's probably better to and can if you want to call it teaching or preaching for the ones that are better Ward, so I think the more we can expose young young adults to the opportunity, and I'll give you an example, for that. I remember, my, my daughter has taken a trip as part of continued waving transition year. But actually, they ended up going to Microsoft's Office in Dublin and apostolic. Now, I tell you, I never heard more about Microsoft and the importance of it, because they were just blown away with everything in terms of the environment. But it probably was four years, two days, truth be told, that really probably needs to happen, in my view, probably earlier for those cohort because they probably had too many preconceptions and anti process. But stata had a major impact in terms of just the space, what to do with the technology that are deploying it, the more we can expose, at an earlier age, the possibilities and opportunities start to raise across our industry. spheres. I think the better I think there can't be a downside from that. Personally,

Dusty Rhodes  32:29

that is an absolutely brilliant point. Because I think transition year is an amazing year for anybody and as you say, just to open you up to new experiences, but the fact you are saying that it's too late, oh my God, you're right. They're teenagers of that stage, they already know everything. They have a grasp of the same things anyway. So if you had that, like, I mean, if you had a year, possibly between the end of primary before they go into secondary war, or maybe there was something in sixth class or something like that, where they were deliberately brought out on day trips to the likes of Microsoft, whatever it is, that that could be a thing.

Michael Lohan  33:05

It's like the young scientist space, you know, it's the area where you can I think the earlier we intervene, and know and it's not gonna be for everyone, right? Let's be honest, either, right? That's pointing to area we give exposure and give experience, the better chance we have of actually bringing that true, I would think so. So the more we can promote that, the more that, you know, I think if companies are listening this to my ask who says what, what can we do as an individual company that could, you know, tap into the six local schools around this as a starting point, and you know, have everyone done their six local schools, before long, every school would be covered. And you'd find that you'd have a network where things would start to move as to wanting to really happens in Ireland is, momentum can happen quite quickly. And connections happened very quickly in Ireland. So, you know, if, if that was the case, and we could get companies, as I say, taken on one or two or six spoons, whoever it might be, we could see a change in inside of it inside of a decade.

Dusty Rhodes  34:00

This is gonna have to stop you there because you give me way too many brilliant ideas. All right, let's get back to the IDA. One of the things that you're very passionate about is regional opportunities in Ireland and expanding outside of Dublin. Why?

Michael Lohan  34:19

Why What does the number of reasons why and I think first of all, from if we think about from a narrative perspective, getting balanced regional development is critically important for us as a state and as a nation and as as a culture and as a society and as I think we've seen the real benefits of that and it's amazing you look at the the growth of centers such as Galway Galway is a recognized center globally for medical device you know, it's incredible you know, that you know, we have we're competing with a Minnesota of the world is actually Galway is in that same in that same space in terms of scale and you look as you know, the western seaboard. glimmery transformation at aspect has happened in Limerick on the back of a number of key investments for trauma Life Sciences perspective and a financial services perspective has has really revolutionized the whole West Coast and the Midwest, in particular. So I think I can say the same for slide one says the same for Waterford in terms of doors investments, and indeed for the Midlands. So we've had really strong investment. And what does that do? It, it does a number of things, actually, first of all, if we think about what we just talked about the next generation of talent, it gives that next generation of talent opportunity actually to live and stay in their communities, it gives that opportunity for that talent actually, to be in their in their local, academic and, and universities. And that's why I think the current scale of our universities and regional universities are so important for us, as we look to technological universities to view the future, we now have clusters built across our regional areas, so that there's multiple benefits from a society perspective, from an economic perspective, and indeed, from an enterprise perspective, because it opens up all of that skill base that you can make available. And of course, then there's also the fact that, you know, it keeps communities vibrant. And it gives a counterbalance, as we know, to Dublin, and of course, the other elements we have to consider as well as in make sure that we can use all of our infrastructure across the country, you're in in an appropriate manner as well. So there are many, many benefits accruing from from having a balanced strategy, which we have from an FDI perspective

Dusty Rhodes  36:25

of all the FDI investment last year, what kind of percentage would you say went to Dublin and what percentage went outside?

Michael Lohan  36:31

Yeah, so we have says a public target actually, that we over this current strategy period of we will have 100 investments and total 400 of which will be in outside of Dublin, and we're currently tracking on are just slightly ahead of that figure. So, so 50% of our, what we're bringing into Ireland is actually outside of Dublin. And that said, I suppose we were probably the only agency to actually make that sort of commitment from a regional perspective, you know, so we put our color near their color to the mass and number of years ago, and that we've committed to DAX, and we've, we've put our money as well into that investment. So we've led off with, with our property program to make sure that we have your scholars are receiving an environment that actually attracts investment as well. So so making sure we have those business parks, making sure we have facilities ready for companies to go so. So like, it's not just enough to say if you actually have to deal with and we've led in the front from doing that as well, that continues to be successful for us. And that could continue to be our, our focus and over the over the next strategy term as well.

Dusty Rhodes  37:35

Finally, Michael, if you were to look back at yourself, and you were talking to your younger self, what what advice would you give yourself as a 20 or 25, or even a 30 year old?

Michael Lohan  37:47

I'd say the advice I give to myself is take every opportunity that comes and to actually trust yourself because you know, probably as you start your career, you have doubts as to you know, is that the right decision? Or should I speak here or you'll I think have trust in yourself. And I think the other thing is your advice to myself is learn as quickly as you can how to how to interact and engage with others because the success your success is going to be based on how you engage with your with your peers, how you can influence and negotiate. I think the more you can actually hone that area in your career, the more you can benefit from a clearer

Dusty Rhodes  38:26

Michael Lohan, CEO of the IDA and engineer thank you so much for talking to us today.

Michael Lohan  38:33

Thank you Dusty a pleasure.

Dusty Rhodes  38:35

If you'd like to find out more about Michael and some of the topics we talked about today, including iWish you'll find notes and links in the show notes area of your player right now. And of course for information on all engineering topics across Ireland and career development opportunities for yourself. There are libraries of information on our website at engineersireland.ie That's it for our episode today. The podcast was produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland to click the Follow button on your podcast player so you get access to all our past and future shows automatically. Until next time from myself Dusty Rhodes. Thank you for listening

Engineers are incredibly innovative and ambitious, but having the right skills and mindset is key to having your ideas heard and supported.

Through self-development and continuous learning you can make yourself stand out in the crowd. Today we find out what education options are available to engineers and what skills you need to focus on to become an invaluable pi-shaped professional.

Our expert today is an electronic engineer who is incredibly passionate about professional development and learning. She is the former Dean of Graduate and Professional Studies and current Director of UL@Work at University of Limerick, Professor Ann Ledwith.

Listen below or on your podcast player!

Things we spoke about

01:09 Ann’s Start In Engineering

05:03 How to make an impression and progress

09:19 Transversal Skills and becoming a pi-shaped professional

13:27 The difference between management and leadership

16:20 Advice for young engineers pursuing leadership

18:13 Business-oriented skills for engineering

20:30 How to approach continued learning

21:54 Further education opportunities with UL@Work

24:50 Learning time commitment and workplace support

Guest details

Professor Ann Ledwith is a graduate of N.I.H.E Limerick where she obtained a degree in Electronic Engineering.  She subsequently completed an MBA at the University of Limerick and a PhD in Managing Product Development at the University of Brighton. She has held a variety of positions at UL including Dean of Graduate and Professional Studies, Director of Continuing and Professional Education, and Assistant Dean of Research (Adult and Continuing Education) with the Faculty of Science and Engineering.

Currently Prof Ledwith is the Director of HCI and UL@Work, and is responsible for delivering UL’s Human Capital Initiative project, UL@Work, which aims to develop digital, industry 4.0, talent through flexible, innovative and technology-enabled, experiential learning; linking enterprise and education to form a co-designed future learning environment.  She is passionate about the role of the university in supporting regional growth and currently chairs Explore Engineering, an industry-led initiative to  increase the quality and quantity of engineering talent (apprentice, technicians and engineers) in the region.

Prof Ledwith worked for over twelve years as a Product Development Engineer and as a Manager of Product Development in small high-technology firms.  She spent 2 years managing the Centre for Project Management at the University of Limerick.  Professor Ledwith has a keen interest in work-based students and flexible learning. Throughout her academic career, she has designed and delivered part-time and blended programmes for both under- and post-graduate students on topics such as Project Management, Entrepreneurship, Innovation Management, Technology Management and Reliability.  Her research interests include new product development, project management, R&D management, innovation and technology management in small firms.

Website: www.ul.ie

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ann-ledwith-65873a/

Further education links:

https://www.ul.ie/gps/professionalflexible-programmes

https://www.ul.ie/gps/microcredentials

https://www.ul.ie/gps/springboard-courses

https://www.ul.ie/gps/professionalflexible-programmes/apprenticeships

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/ 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

Quotes

You have to be willing to step up, you have to be willing to say, ‘Yeah, I can take charge of this project, or I can manage a few people.’ - Ann Ledwith

When you're working with people, you need a certain amount of single mindedness and focus, but you also need to be able to bring your people along with you, you need to appreciate and listen to what people are saying. You need to have a vision, you need to be able to communicate that vision, and you need to be able to convince people that's where they want to be as well. - Ann Ledwith

We often talk about a pi-shaped professional, you need these broad skills along the top, and then your areas of expertise. You need both if you want to be successful. - Ann Ledwith

I think that sense of having a vision of how you want to move things forward is very important, but that's useless unless you can bring people with you - Ann Ledwith

It is so important for job satisfaction that people can see that they've contributed to something. I think that's why people follow leaders because they feel that it's adding more meaning and more relevance to what they're doing. - Ann Ledwith

The first thing is to let people know you're there and to let people know that you do have ambition. Very often that's the toughest step for a young engineer, we're not taught to go forward and to share your ideas like that. But I think it's very important that you make sure people realize that the potential that you have - Ann Ledwith

One of the key things if you are getting on that journey of continuous education is to get the support from your manager. Tell them how this program is actually going to progress you, it's not just that you're getting skills, but your company is getting skills - Ann Ledwith

Transcription

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes 00:00

In your engineering career, do you want to be a manager or leader? And what's the difference? We're about to find out.

Ann Ledwith 00:07

When you get into leadership, you have a vision, you're able to say, well, this is how I think things should be. First, that's useless, unless you can bring people with you.

Dusty Rhodes 00:21

Hello there, my name is Dusty Rhodes, and welcome to AMPLIFIED the Engineers Journal podcast. Most successful engineers agree that continuous learning is paramount to a successful and progressive career in engineering. But when innovation and technology are moving at such a rapid pace today, it can feel overwhelming to keep up. So today, we're going to find out what further education options are available to engineers and what skills you can develop to help move yourself forward and upwards in your career. Our guest today is incredibly passionate about professional development and learning. She is the former Dean of Graduate and Professional Studies and the current director of UL@Work, at the University of Limerick, Ann Ledwith. Thank you very much for joining us on the podcast. Thank you. So listen, tell me Ann you're a big advocate for careers in engineering. How did you get into this business? How did you know it was the right path for you?

Ann Ledwith 01:18

I suppose it was a bit serendipitous when I was at school and ended up breaking desolations in Limerick, we didn't have physics and I decided I wanted to do physics. So about four of us had to go to the local Christian Brothers school that was just across the road to do physics. And up to probably the end of fifth year, I was going to be a dentist, I'd probably be a lot richer if I was a dentist but who knows I wouldn't be happier. But all the boys were going to physics, we're all going to do engineering. So I said, and I was good at physics, I was good at math and those types of subjects. And I said, Well, if they're going to be engineers, then I should be an engineer too. So to be honest, it wasn't a career that had ever entered my mind. Until I heard my classmates talking about the classmates and my physics class talking about it. Now he's helped that we have a passionate female physics teacher as well, that was very, very supportive. But that's where I decided to do engineering. And at the time, and he, as it was then was just starting, they had a very good program in electronic engineering. And that's where I ended up with quite a few of my colleagues from our physics class, Limerick as well.

Dusty Rhodes 02:30

So when you got out into the real world, what kind of engineering work were you doing?

Ann Ledwith 02:34

Well, I did electronic engineering, and I worked for a while with analog devices, I moved to Germany on a contract for about a year. And then I came back to Limerick and worked with a company called Interpro. As a design engineer and an entrepreneur, we were designing automatic test equipment for power supplies. So I was involved in hardware, and software firmware, and worked there for about seven, eight years, it was a small company, it was a startup, a great place for an engineer to start. Because I think in a smaller company like that, you're exposed to everything you're exposed to how sales work, how orders are fulfilled, how manufacturing happens. And I felt that was a really, really good start and foundation for my career in engineering. And that's where I started to get opportunities for leadership as well. Again, in a smaller company, I started being the manager of our software development and ended up being the R&D manager in the company. So I was looking after all of our development. But I suppose at that stage, I knew the business inside out, I had been there for a good number of years and knew everybody involved. So it was a very interesting and very kind of exciting time.

Dusty Rhodes 03:44

I liked the way you say that you went into management. And you mentioned leadership because the two are almost completely different things. And it's something I want to delve into a little later. But looking back at your engineering career, what would you say is the one thing that you're most proud of?

Ann Ledwith 04:00

Oh, that's, that's a hard one. Because I moved, my career changed quite a bit. So while I was at Interpro, I was very proud. We developed a new system, a new test system, I was responsible for developing the software and how the software looked, and also for developing some of the hardware modules on that. And it was definitely very rewarding to see the equipment in use in companies to see, you know, something that you were able to step back and say, Well, I designed that, you know, and it's part of a production for and there were maybe four or five of these things lined up churning through power supplies, testing them, and you can kind of say, well, well, I did that. That was me. So I think that's one of the things that's great about engineering is that we make things and very often when you make things you can see the things that you made, and you can see them working and people using them. And whether it's something else kind of mundane as a piece of test equipment, or a new bridge or you know, a new mobile device or whatever it is but we make things and we make things that work and I That's one of the things that I really love about a career in engineering.

Dusty Rhodes 05:03

So one of the things that I do want to chat about a little bit later is management and leadership because there's a huge difference between them. But can I start by asking you about your own journey kind of moving from the shop floor as it were into management and into leadership? Then how does somebody move upwards in a business? What steps should they take?

Ann Ledwith 05:23

Like, I guess, to a certain extent, it's different depending on the business you're in, like I was in a small company, and I was willing to take on the responsibility, I think that's an awful lot of it, that you have to be willing to step up, you have to be willing to say, Yeah, I can take charge of this project, or I can manage a few people. And that's not for everybody. But I think, you know, if you have a bit of ambition, and if you like to, my I hate to say if you're a bit of a control freak, like you like to determine the outcome of things, and I think an awful lot of engineers do, like you don't like things to just happen to you, you like to have some control over what's happening to you and how systems are developed and, and how you make decisions. You know, in my case, it was in how we were developing our software. And I actually ended up having some quite strong views about that, because of how our system was configured and how I felt it should work. And we'd be better to move to something that was more modular. And it's by deciding that you want to take ownership, I think it's an awful lot of where you're at that you have to decide, I can do this, I will step up and do it. And to look at the other people around you and think, look, I can do at least as good a job as they can do. So why not me? But I think maybe two things have to happen. One is that your company has to appreciate you and be willing to promote you. And by and large, people are happy to prod people who want to do the work. But I think an awful lot of it has to come internally from you, as an engineer, that you're saying, Yes, I'm willing to take this step forward. Yes, it's not beyond me to decide, I'm not just going to implement a design what I'm being asked to design, but I actually want to be more involved in making those decisions and directing what's happening and have more control over where our product or technology or whatever else it is, is going.

Dusty Rhodes 07:07

There is a world of difference in designing something and controlling that thing, as you say, and then controlling people, which is the team. But there are similar two skills at the same time. So what kind of skills do you think are important for progression in that way?

Ann Ledwith 07:21

Like, I think of the two, it's controlling the people and managing the people that number one is actually what's critical to making projects happen. And is something that's more difficult. And I think it is something that comes a little bit more with age, you need a bit of experience and a bit of maturity before you can start to manage other people and bring them along. That's my opinion on it. I think you need a lot of empathy. When you're working with people, you need a certain amount of kind of single-mindedness and focus. But you also need to be able to bring your people along with you, you need to appreciate and listen to what people are saying. But you need to have a vision, you need to be able to communicate that vision. And you need to be able to convince people, that's where they want to be as well. But they are two different skill sets. And of the two I'd say the one that takes a bit longer to develop is the people management and the people management skills.

Dusty Rhodes 08:16

And where do you learn those skills? Or where do you start learning those skills?

Ann Ledwith 08:20

You start in kindergarten, you know, I often think that how you interact with people starts at the very, very beginning. But it is kind of when you get into your career. And when you start moving forward, I think you just have to observe what's happening around you. Now there are lots of programs that will help. And I know when I was kind of going through that management phase earlier in my career, I did take part in a leadership program. And it was very useful. But an awful lot of the use of being on a program like that is really talking to peers and talking to colleagues and finding what are other people doing and realizing that you know, other people have the same problems as you have heard, and they have different ways of solving them and different ways of going about things. So I think anywhere in my life when I've gone back for additional learning, the learning itself has been useful, but almost more useful is that peer-to-peer learning. And I think that that still holds true in almost any area of kind of upskilling and rescaling is that peer learning can be really, really important. So I think that's a key place where you learn and where you observe what people are doing. 

Dusty Rhodes 09:19

One word I have heard bandied around in relation to this is transversal skills. What exactly are transversal skills?

Ann Ledwith 09:26

They're just a new thing. Know, I think they are a new name for things that we always had to do you know, for things that you gained with experience, but I think they are a very important skill set that we have maybe over the last years started to kind of pigeonhole different people into particular professions and particular skill sets. But yes, when you get out into the workplace, you need to be able to work with people. You need to be able to communicate effectively. You need to be able to manage teams and work in a team. And they're all those kinds of what used to be softer skills and are now more commonly referred to as power skills. But to be honest, you know, way back kind of 1015 years ago, when I was more involved in engineering programs here at UL and getting programs accredited, there were always those learning outcomes that were about managing teams and being aware of society and being aware of the people around you. And making sure that engineers had those skills, as well as having the technical skills, which I think is really, really important. So I think transversal skills are very, very useful, I think they're things that should be part of all of our degrees. And all of our undergraduates should get them, I think, to be honest, are coming to the forum. Now, post COVID, because we've had whatever it is for three, four years, where people have been working in very kind of isolated ways. And it's almost like we've got to bring them back together and teach people how to work with each other and work together. So we often talk about that kind of pie-shaped professional, that you need these broad skills along the top, and then your areas of expertise. But you need both if you want to be successful.

Dusty Rhodes 11:02

That's another phrase that I've heard is T shaped professionals that somebody is somebody brought up at the top. And yeah, when

Ann Ledwith 11:08

I'm saying pie, I'm just putting an extra leg on that T because very often we need somebody who you know, understands it, as well as understanding telecoms, or whether it's very close, or circuit design or, or even medicine, we're seeing so much more of an overlap between an awful lot of these professions that that in areas of biological sciences, medical sciences, that research is really delving into how technology is informing that how AI is informing that. 

Dusty Rhodes 11:39

So you need more than one expertise very often when you're thinking about your career, and you're kind of thinking I want to move on and do something else... engineering related, what kind of opportunities are there for engineers outside of the direct industry itself?

Ann Ledwith 11:52

I take there are a lot of different careers and career paths that engineers can take. That's one of the things that I really like about an engineering degree and would encourage, you know, parents talking to kids to look at engineering, because I think sometimes when you're at the start of it, you think, Well, I'm going to be an engineer, and that's what I'm going to do. But to actually develop a skill set as an engineer, that can apply in an awful lot of different areas. So you would see engineers talk turning up in sales and marketing, in systems an awful lot in education in a lot of different spheres. And I think one of the things that an engineering degree gives you is almost a way of thinking as a systems way of thinking because I find that something that to me an awful lot in my career, that I can look at, you know, a problem or a mess, you know, what, whether it's to do with engineering, whether it's to do with how we're structuring a program at work, or whether it's dealing with another project at work, and I find I can put a structure on it, you know, I can pull the bits of it together that matters. I can say, well, this is how we should do this. This is the way we should put this as a project. And I think it's that kind of high-level systems thinking that engineers are actually quite good at that there is a kind of a way that you think that that's very structured and systematized and you think, well, we're going to do that, and how are we going to measure it? And how will we know? What resources will we need? So you start to think in a far more kind of structured way. And I think that can apply across the board. And that's why you find engineers, very often in management roles in a lot of industries. So they've left behind the engineering, and they're working in kind of general management areas.

Dusty Rhodes 13:27

I think what I hear you saying is engineers are problem solvers. And you know, leadership and management are all about solving problems with teams, we often the arrow of the importance of leadership in engineering, one is the difference between management because lots of people go into management, or very few people become leaders. What is the difference between management and leadership?

Ann Ledwith 13:49

I think one of the key differences is when you get into leadership, you have a vision, and maybe you have visions about several visions, but you have, you know, you're able to say, well, this is how I think things should be. And I was actually thinking about this recently. And that's one thing that I found that the later stages of my career, that I'm actually much more willing to step forward and say, Well, this is where I think you should actually go with this. And this is how it should look in the future. And I think that sense of having a vision that you want to show how you want to move things forward is very important. But that's useless unless you can bring people with you. So I think it's being able to do both of those things. Because we can think of and even within companies, you will get these people who have crazy mad ideas, but nobody listens to them. And that can sometimes be big, it's not necessarily the best thing. But I think if you can bring people along with you on those towards what that vision is, if you can be inclusive in developing how you think you want things to go forward and actually bring things with you. I think that that's the key with leadership is that you can have that vision, but that you could communicate and bring people along with you towards that vision.

Dusty Rhodes 14:58

Then when you are a leader either and you have a vision and you're going for this particular goal to improve the world. And you've got 50 PP behind you. And man, I like the way that guys think I'm going to work with him. Alright, so your leader, how does that kind of leadership improve the quality of work and experience within a company, for the people who were behind you and supporting you?

Ann Ledwith 15:20

Well, I think it gives you I mean, there's a great sense of grace, satisfaction and being part of a team, that that is working towards something and something that's going to improve whether it's improving how we work, improving how we teach, improving what our product looks like. But that is working towards improvement and to feel that you're listened to that you're part of that you're of achieving something, and that you're confident contributing. And I actually think that I mean, that is so important for job satisfaction is that people can see that they've contributed to something that has made an improvement. And I think that's why people would very often follow leaders because they feel that that it adds more meaning it's adding more relevance to what they're doing. And they're actually they're achieving something, as opposed to, you know, the same thing as I did yesterday. And here's what I'm going to be doing next week, and my manager says, I should do it x, y, and z because that's the way the company does it. And I think that's part of the difference. And it's a much more exciting place to be, you know, when you're trying to create something new or do something new.

Dusty Rhodes 16:20

So this is developing really nicely because a leader is somebody who has vision, he's got people who agree with our vision, who are following him, but the leader is also interested in helping the people who are following him, develop themselves. So if I'm sitting here, and I'm an engineer, and I'm kind of thinking this sounds good, I want to get into management, because I've got ideas, I want to change the world in my own way. I mean, how do I start all of the, you know, I'm just working at a desk as a regular engineer, how do you start the journey towards management and leadership?

Ann Ledwith 16:53

So you're sitting at your desk, but where are you? You know, why does your company what are you passionate about? You know, are you designing, you know, a communication system that you think should be done differently and should use a different type of technology? And I think it depends on your context. And I think part of kind of the first thing that you need to do is to step up and to make sure that the people who are working with you, and particularly the people who are senior to you in the company, know that you want to go further, I know that you want to take on a leadership role. And they're aware that you're there. So very often kind of as a junior engineer there, and there's a tendency to keep my head down and get the work done. That's not going to get too far if you want to get involved in leadership. And you don't have to be the person who's shouting for the trees or anything like that. But you do have to be the person who will make sure that their voice is heard, and their opinion is heard. And if you have a good idea, well articulated and share it. So I think the first thing is to let people know you're there and to let people know that you do have ambition. And I think very often that's the toughest step for a young engineer. Because I mean, very often we're not taught to kind of go forward and to share your ideas like that. But I think it's very important that you, you make sure people see you and you make sure people realize the potential that you have.

Dusty Rhodes 18:13

You think if you're going to then go into the leadership side of things that you need to do you need to be business orientated. For that, you have to do a business degree on top of everything else.

Ann Ledwith 18:25

I think that depends, I think in some of the kinds of larger technical companies, they would have a route for leadership on an engineering side that needn't be as involved in the business. But to be honest, I think, really, so if you're in a smaller company, then there is more of a need to have a better idea of where the business is at. But in either case, I think you have to be aware of the implications of the decisions that you're making. So you do have to be aware of the business. And I think as an engineer, again, that would be advice to kind of engineers starting out, become aware of what your businesses, you know, who are your key customers, what are the, you know, how was your product differentiated from other people's products, because that is important, it is important that you know, where the business is going. And I know when I was kind of mid-career, as I said, I did, I did a leadership course. But I went on and did an MBA as well. And that was very, very useful to me at the time that I did it. So I think that you know, whether it's an MBA or whether it's, you know, even in something in project management or management in general, I think that skill set that's kind of outside of engineering is very useful for you. But I would say to engineers, get your feet under the table, you know, I wouldn't be jumping into something like that when you're two years out of college. Wait until you actually know what way is that up and you know where your industry is before you go and get that skill set.

Dusty Rhodes 19:44

Do you think another way of possibly doing this and letting people know that you're interested and progressing but without being pushy if you want to put it that way is to ask questions as you say to reach out and to learn is it okay to ask people questions about the business.

Ann Ledwith 20:02

Absolutely. And I think most people will be happy to share with you. So, yeah, inquire and find out what's going on. I think that makes an awful lot of sense. Because, again, like I said earlier, it's context, I think you have to know where you're operating and where you're working, and what are the goals of the company? So what are the key aims of the company because you need to align yourself with that if you want to be moving up in a leadership or even in a management role in a company, you need to be aware of what their goals are.

Dusty Rhodes 20:30

My mind is just worrying with the amount of things that you're saying that I would have to learn about Android engineering is such a fast-paced industry and with so many different opportunities for learning, it can be a little bit overwhelming for some people, how should engineers approach their continued learning?

Ann Ledwith 20:47

Well, I mean, I would say you can't do everything. So I think sometimes you have to make choices. I can remember back, probably about 20 years ago, I put a lot of time into redesigning one of our programs. And we launched the program, and it was very successful, and I was very happy with it. And I could have decided to pursue that to stay on with that program to grow it to be the course director. But at the same time, there was an opportunity in working with continuous education, lifelong learning, and driving that. And I had to let go of something and decide to do something else to go with a lifelong learning piece because you can't do everything. And I think there are important kinds of inflection points in people's careers where they have to make decisions like that and decide, well, what's going to be taking me further apart? Am I really passionate about it? And I think when you've when you've made those decisions, then start looking at what kind of learning and what kind of upskilling you want, because it has to be relevant to you. But that's my opinion, that when you're moving forward in your career, and you've decided where you'd like your career to go, that's when you should be looking at what part of education what programs or courses can help me along the way with that.

Dusty Rhodes 21:54

So listen, tell me about you. Well, you're currently the director of UL at work, can you explain what kind of opportunities you are at work at present?

Ann Ledwith 22:02

UL as work is part of a program called the human capital and asset that was funded through the National Training Fund. So about four years ago, they open to competitive funds for universities to innovate and innovate in ways that were going to really support the development of skills and work closely with industry, looking at what kind of graduates do we need to produce. And what we did at Limerick is that we focus very much on professional education and postgraduate education. So you will at work has developed a range of programs, a lot of them are one-year part-time programs called professional diplomas, where people can upscale on areas, very diverse areas. So we've got programs in sustainability and communications and PR programs in strategic leadership in data analytics, in artificial intelligence. So there are there's a whole range of programs. But one of the things that we've done with that, which I think is a really great opportunity for students is that we've put in place a new masters called a Masters of Professional {ractice. And what the Masters is about is that you can pick any three of those professional diplomas that are going to suit your career, and you can put them together to get a master's. So you will do one of them in one year, you can do the second one, and then you can do the third one. And with your third one, you get your Masters. And it's proving really, really popular. And what it allows students to do is to really customize their learning. So we have, for example, we've had a very good program in aviation, leasing, and finance, and we've called a couple of good aviation programs, and students will do those. But they'll say, Well, actually, I need a bit of leadership with that as well. Or I need to find out about Lean, and how do I implement Lean in my company, so you'll get very diverse kind of mixes of diplomas and various of learning, but they make sense for a person's career. What we have is a structure that kind of scaffolds you through from microcredit to Masters, where you can pick a microcredit that's related to or that's part of one of these professional diplomas. Go ahead, do the professional diploma, once you know that, it's where you want to be, and then build three of these. And it goes back to my comment at the start about these kinds of pie shapes. The T-shaped professionals are now becoming pie-shaped professionals and maybe show professionals where you need a couple of deep dives and a few things, you need a couple of areas that you can say, well actually look, I can stand up and talk about that because I know that as well as having the transversal skills. And I think that's what our master's in professional practice does. It allows you to build, you know, up to three different areas that you know a lot about that you've advanced to kind of level nine to Masters level in a particular topic, but that you can bring them together kind of with some of these transversal skills,

Dusty Rhodes 24:50

the range of content of things that I can learn sounds amazing from the way you describe it and the fact that it can help my vision to move up in a career sounds amazing. I do want Want to be a leader that people are following me rather than being a manager with a hammer and playing Whack a Mole with employees all day. And the one thing that does worry me is the time elements. And it sounds great when you say it's a part-time when you're I've got a full-time job I've got, you know, three kids hanging out I've got a wife is always cranky, I made sure to mean, what kind of time commitment is there in here.

Ann Ledwith 25:23

We've been at this for a long time, and people can put in between 15 and 20 hours a week. And more than that isn't going to happen. So we can design any program we say and say there's 30 weeks studying that, it's not going to happen. As you say, for somebody who has children, a career, or a wife, sometimes older parents do all of these husband, Max, you'll be able to put in 15 hours a week, 15 to 20 hours a week. So you might put in an hour to kind of during the week after work, and then maybe one or two longer stints at the weekend. But you've got to get the balance right. And I think I suppose I'm comfortable talking about that, because I did my MBA, as I was managing things, I had my baby in the middle of my first child in the middle of my MBA, so I put a totally different color on the whole thing and trying to finish it off. It is doable, but you have to be focused on it. And I think one of the things that is quite nice about the model that we have is that you pit you take it one piece at a time, you know, so it's not saying you're committing to three years are you committing, you'll commit to one year and one year is actually two semesters and two semesters is to 15-week blocks. And you know, if you break it down like that, you can rationalize it and say, Okay, I will have a nice bit off at Christmas, I will have a short break at Easter, I've my summer off. So I think you have to keep that balance kind of between how you do everything

Dusty Rhodes 26:47

in the workplace, then how can managers and leaders that you're working with support you if you want to follow this journey of continued education,

Ann Ledwith 26:57

I think one of the key things is, you know, if you are getting on that journey of continuing education is to get the support from your manager because they need to know that you're doing this program. And they need to know that you might need a little bit of slack that you're not going to be working till eight o'clock, kind of three evenings a week, but that you need to finish up because we have more work to do. But I think part of that has to be a conversation with your manager about how this program is actually going to progress you and how it's going to help you. So it's not just that you're getting skills, but your company is getting skills, and the way an awful lot of our programs. And again, I know I'm talking about what we do at your will. But other universities have similar types of programs. But a lot of our programs are very linked to your business and linked to your workplace. So where you know, I take the lead program, it's a very good example, that as you're moving through Lean projects, your projects are requiring you to review your current working situation to look at how you can improve things. And in fact, on our lien program, the thesis that you do at the end has to make a particular contribution to your company. So you only get through with your thesis proposal, if you can show how it's going to save your company money or time or whatever it is, or improve things. And I mean, we've had some fantastic program projects there where people have saved hundreds of 1000s for the companies by being involved in a project like this. So I think the conversation very much has to be I want to do this program, it's going to help me it's going to help you this is how I'm going to bring this learning back into the workplace. And programs have to be designed like that.

Dusty Rhodes 28:29

That is almost how you start thinking like a leader because you're going home and you're saying to your partner, I want to do this extra work. Because after I will be able to do boom, which will bring benefit to us, then you're going into your employer and you're saying, I want to do this blah, blah, blah, and the benefits of the company will be bumped. And you're starting to be a leader then because you're sharing a vision for our people kind of go I want to be part of that. That's love the way you think.

Ann Ledwith 28:55

Yeah, no, it's very true. It's very true that you're looking at where this is taking me. But it's not just me. It's how it's improving the other things around me, very important.

Dusty Rhodes 29:05

If I'm considering taking on some more education in order to improve myself and to move forward. Where do I start? I mean, is there stuff that you're aware of with engineers, in Ireland? Is there stuff that I can find on your website with you? Well,

Ann Ledwith 29:21

yeah, I mean, there is stuff that you'd find on engineers, Ireland, and upskilling. But the government has actually done really good work over the last number of years and we were very supportive of people who want to go back to education. So our Springboard program is a fantastic place to start. And the springboard offers programs across the range, a whole pile of different areas. And they're pretty much you know, they're very well funded, but about 90% funded, and those are all open now. So, anybody who wants to go on to the Springboard web website, we see a whole range of programs. The other group that works really well with upscaling our skill nets and our skills are working across all the regions across all the different areas of technology. And they're also looking at what are the needs of the industry, what are the skills that they need. So those would be two very obvious places to go. But also on for any of the universities, I mean, now is the time where we're kind of coming to the end of our recruitment cycle for September. So depending on what you want to do, or where you want to go, if you go on to our URL website and look for postgraduate education, you will find a list of different programs that are available there. And you know, the same in any institution. 

Dusty Rhodes 30:32

You have affected me and I hope you have affected the person listening to the podcast at the moment in that I want to be a leader. I don't want to be a manager. I want to be a leader. And I find that everything that you've said has been very inspiring today. So thank you so much for sharing with us on the podcast today. Thank you. If you'd like to find out more about Ann and some of the topics that we did speak about today, you will find notes and link details in the show notes area of your player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and exclusive advanced episodes of our Engineers Ireland AMPLIFIED podcast on our website engineersireland. ie. Our podcast today was produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland. If you'd like more episodes do click the Follow button on your podcast player right now to get access to all of our past and future shows automatically. Until next time, from myself, Dusty Rhodes, thank you for listening.

Engineering Is Fundamental To Enterprise

Irish engineers are having a fantastic impact in global enterprise but are we nimble and innovative enough to take on the internationals?

Today we find out how engineering is fundamental to the future of enterprise in Ireland and why innovation and sustainability will be vital to our success.

We are delighted to be joined by CEO of Enterprise Ireland, and Fellow of Engineers Ireland, Leo Clancy.

 Listen below or on your podcast player!

Things we spoke about

01:26 Leo’s career from engineering to enterprise 

04:17 What does Enterprise Ireland do?

05:25 Engineering is fundamental to enterprise

08:38 How Ireland stands out in a global market

11:47 What we can learn from international companies

14:28 Adopting an innovation mindset

18:09 How Enterprise Ireland can help start ups

22:58 Opportunities for Irish engineering companies

25:29 Sustainability as an opportunity and as a threat

33:41 Future forecasting and Impact 2030 for engineering

Guest details

Leo Clancy is the Chief Executive Officer of Enterprise Ireland, the State Agency that helps Irish companies to start, scale and grow globally. Leo graduated from Dublin Institute of Technology with a First-Class Honours degree in Electronic and Electrical Engineering and is a Fellow of Engineers Ireland.

Before being appointed as CEO of Enterprise Ireland, Leo was a member of the Executive Committee of IDA Ireland, the State agency for Foreign Direct Investment. There, he led the Technology sector, working extensively at up to C-level with the top global technology and services companies.

Leo spent most of his career in the telecommunications industry, working in senior management, technical and engineering roles. His most recent role was as Service Delivery Director at e|net. Prior to that, he was General Manager, Service Delivery at Ericsson Ireland.

Website: https://www.enterprise-ireland.com/en/about-us/our-people/executivecommitee/leo-clancy.html

Social Media: www.linkedin.com/in/leoclancy

More information

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/ 

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

Quotes

It was that discipline of learning about something and problem solving that I really appreciated about engineering, and I think gives you a great grounding. I've been a manager effectively now for 20 years. You never lose that engineering mindset in terms of how you approach problems, and I think it really stands to people. - Leo Clancy

Irish companies and people have a get it done mentality. We are flexible, we know how to roll with things and problem solving is at the core of how we think about things. Ireland has always had that little bit of a scrappy edge to us, and that shouldn't be confused with low quality because it's not. Irish people are good at analyzing the problem, working out how to change the process in order to get it done, as well as delivering quality. - Leo Clancy

I think we could certainly bring back more of that cultural respect for engineering. We need to value engineering more. - Leo CLancy

There's some brilliant innovation going on in Ireland. And I think it's not beyond the possibility for Irish companies in various domains who are already strong on services and delivering projects to start innovating solutions within their businesses. - Leo Clancy

We're going to see continued and vastly increasing investment in sustainability. That is certainly something that every company should be looking at, as an opportunity, but also as a threat. If companies don't have sustainability plans, and verifiable ones for their businesses, they will be out of business in three to five years. No one will buy from a company that doesn't have a good ESG plan, and that can't verify their own sustainability credentials. - Leo Clancy

It's an absolute testament to Irish business that 2022 was a record year on exports. Irish business performed very well during the pandemic, so I'd be very optimistic about where we're going in the future. I think notwithstanding what might happen in the global markets, I think we're going to continue to see growth in Irish business exports, and growth and jobs. - Leo Clancy

Transcription

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes 00:00

Right now on AMPLIFIED, the Engineers Journal podcast, we're about to learn just how important innovation is for success.

Leo Clancy 00:08

Irish engineers would go to sites, and we'd figure out how to get the job done. We wouldn't stand behind. Well, this has never been done before, it needs to go back to the product unit, and needs to be considered for another three months. Ireland has always had that little bit of a scrappy edge to us as well as well as delivering quality.

Dusty Rhodes 00:28

Hello there. My name is Dusty Rhodes and you're very welcome to AMPLIFIED the Engineers Journal podcast. Irish engineers are having a fantastic impact across the globe. But are we nimble and innovative enough to take on the internationals? Could the lack of sustainability credentials put us out of business? And why is engineering so fundamental to Ireland's future? Our guest today is one of the country's most prestigious engineers who works tirelessly to promote Irish enterprise on the international stage and is about to give us some great insight. I'm delighted to be joined today by a fellow of Engineers Ireland and the current Chief Executive Officer of Enterprise Ireland. Leo Clancy, thanks for coming on.

Leo Clancy 01:16

Thanks, Dusty. It's a pleasure to be here.

Dusty Rhodes 01:18

So listen, you're an engineer at heart Leo, and a fellow of Engineers Ireland. Tell us a little bit about your career in engineering.

Leo Clancy 01:26

I came to engineering accidentally, actually, which is interesting, because the only reason I picked it was I wanted to be a Vet. But the Leaving Cert points were never going to get me there. So the next best choice was what my two cousins thought, it was electronic engineering, which I knew nothing about. Buzz went for us and came to love. It really enjoyed us. And it was that discipline of learning about something and problem-solving that I really appreciated about engineering and I think gives you a great grounding. Like I've been a manager effectively now for 20 years in one form or another bus. You never lose that engineering mindset in terms of how you approach problems. So I think a really stands to people.

Dusty Rhodes 02:06

Tell me how did all of this engineering work then lead you to work with Enterprise Ireland?

Leo Clancy 02:12

I was working with Ericsson Optics as an ace. And during the summer of 2000, and Asia, we probably had a family choice to make about where we were going to be. I ended up resigning from my 30-year career. With Ericsson. On the day, Lehman Brothers collapsed into designation, to join a loss-making telecom startup patinas. It turned into one of the most amazing experiences I've ever had, I joined as service delivery director and took on engineering. So effectively in the CTO role as Enos did that job for four and a half years, and it was an amazing project, we grew the business, and we made it profitable. And then the business was in the process of being sold. And I met no boss of mine who said that the Ida was looking for a head of ICT, being this about marketing the servos, helping attract the biggest ICT companies to Ireland's that's UN's a bit more interesting. So joined Ida and spent eight years there leading the tech sector. My clients were Amazon, Intel, Facebook, Microsoft, and Google. So that led me to an immensely interesting eight years of seeing that hyper-growth of the tech sector. And then it's always been my ambition to be CEO of a company, private or public. I would have said that we're for a person who's come from industry, there are two super interesting jobs in the public sector ecosystem, the CEO of Ida and the CEO of Enterprise Ireland. So this was the one that came up soonest.

Dusty Rhodes 03:41

And does Enterprise Ireland still have that kind of like problem-solving angle to your life, except on a much bigger national scale?

Leo Clancy 03:48

Every day of the week. We're an organization of over 800 people with a budget of around 400 million euros. We have 40 offices outside Ireland. So it's a big organization. But so involved in the tech ecosystem funding university research, and funding companies, my early stage was an equity investor in nearly 2000 companies, you know, just hugely interesting span 4000 clients across many sectors. So there's something to learn in every hour of every day.

Dusty Rhodes 04:17

I kind of want to chat with you about opportunities abroad for engineering companies and how you would kind of look nationally and internationally at things that engineers are always considering like sustainability and innovation in the future. But first, just to kind of give us a bit of because we all hear about the ITA we all hear about enterprise Ireland but you know we don't pay as much attention to it as maybe you would like us to and apologize here now for that. Can you explain to us what is the IDA and what specifically really is Enterprise Ireland?

Leo Clancy 04:47

The IDA is a sales and marketing machine at its heart, it's focused on bringing foreign direct investment to Ireland's enterprise. Ireland is much more complex, we are focused on Irish companies entirely, and Ida is focused entirely on non-Irish companies. So our portfolio ranges from the very earliest founder who's thinking about starting a business and might want to do an entrepreneurship training course, all the way up to companies like Kerry Group and Icon, clinical trials companies, and others who are very large global leaders in their fields. And every company in between. So we've got over 4000 clients.

Dusty Rhodes 05:25

One of the things that I have seen them, you know, we're looking at various videos and and and articles and reopen and investigating you, Lele essentially, one of the things that you said was that engineering is fundamental to the future of Irish enterprise. What do you mean by that? Why is engineering so key to Irish enterprise?

Leo Clancy 05:43

Engineering is a fundamental building block of any modern economy. You know, and I think this will be increasingly true. So engineers build large parts of our world and engineering has been a huge string for Ireland in terms of how we succeed. So if I look at the industries that are growing fastest in my world, its construction actually is one of our single biggest growing export sectors, companies that have engineered the semiconductor fabs, the farmer plants, and the data centers in Ireland, are now taking what they've learned in Ireland, and they're going global, and all around the world, a huge, huge growth rate in that area. Sustainability Solutions was our fastest-growing job sector last year. And again, depends on good engineers who can include can engineer software solutions, carbon monitoring solutions, put them into insights, and life sciences, reading faster, etc. We have hundreds of innovation, of young life sciences companies that are growing very fast now, I think the scientific community probably wouldn't thank me for not including them, also, in addition to engineers, but I think science and engineering capability is fundamental to the creation of new and defensible IP. If you want to succeed in a very competitive global market, you need products that are unique, defensible in global markets, and give you a competitive edge. And I think Roiland does knowledge economy, we need to re-emphasize the importance that engineering and science at the core of our industrial solutions.

Dusty Rhodes 07:14

You say one of the quickest growing areas of the moment is construction and construction internationally. How does construction work on an international basis,

Leo Clancy 07:24

it worked through a number of strands, the primary ones are people making products, whether it's precast, concrete, or electrical monitoring systems, and lots of products like that, you know, partition walls, that are exporters and go into construction products, say, you know, and they might have got their start with an Amazon in Ireland, or with Intel or with or with Pfizer. And once those, once they've proven them, once companies have proven themselves selling products into those companies, the world is their oyster in terms of global supply chains. The other really fast-growing one is people. So the people who built those projects in Ireland, we had a great announcement from h&m B A a few weeks ago, where they were adding 700 jobs around the world, including 400, and Ireland to serve global electrical and data center projects and their mechanical and electrical contractor their core competencies, the people that they provide project manage and install electrical solutions in very large plants. So are people traveling out on a contract basis to be part of the building project? And people that they will hire locally if there's a pipeline to a business that can keep going locally? And complementing those two soaks? Product and people exports are the two elements.

Dusty Rhodes 08:38

And what is it about, like engineering here in Ireland that makes it so appealing abroad?

Leo Clancy 08:44

I guess it's a done mentality. Yeah, if I saw rose, Irish, Irish companies and people are flexible, we know how to roll with things. Problem-solving is at the core of how we think about things. And when I worked at Ericsson, this was also true, Irish engineers would go to sites, and we'd figure out how to get the job done, we wouldn't stand behind. Well, this has never been done before it needs to go back to the product unit needs to be considered for another three months, Ireland has always had that little bit of a scrappy orange to us. And that shouldn't be confused with low quality because it's not Irish people are good at analyzing the problem, working out what needs to be done working out how to change the process in order to get it done, as well as, as well as delivering quality. So I think we can do the two of those together. There are a lot of countries that are good at getting things done the scrappy way and leave you with a mess. And you know, it's not uniformly culture than any country but that that can be true in certain areas. There are other places where the culture is that you follow a process regardless of the difficulty it causes. Ireland threads in between those two were able to change the process and maintain the quality.

Dusty Rhodes 09:55

There's a thing that we have in Ireland that whenever we travel abroad, we automatically assumed People love us. You travel a lot and it's a lot to do with business and enterprise and everything. That surely is not the reality what are the real thoughts of foreigners when they look back at Ireland?

Leo Clancy 10:12

I think they don't love us they really love us just a word.

Leo Clancy 10:19

It's funny, you know, it is a privileged position to be in, but it's generally true. You know, I have traveled all over the world, myself and Ireland, Ireland's an interesting country. First of all, we have a big Global Diaspora. So we've been distributed around the world, we've had people go out and work in every part of the world, and we've never had a colonial history or passage that would color the perception of us in areas. So we are generally welcome where we are, but then we're also good at getting on with people, you know, Irish people are good at understanding cultures, understanding difference, because we've had that Jasper, we've all known people who've traveled too far corners the world and have to have had to make themselves acceptors. And that's permeated its way back into us. We were a nation of migrants. And we've had to be conscious of other cultures, we've had to, we've depended on the kindness of others, to help us succeed as individuals and to help the nation succeed because we had a population that couldn't have been sustained with we were talking this week about the JFK 60 celebrations. The population of Ireland in the 60s was 2.5 million; the population on the island in 1840, was 8 million I believe. So the amount of people who left Ireland or died from the inability because of the inability to leave the country, I think there is a race memory of this and Irish people that makes us more culturally sensitive.

Dusty Rhodes 11:47

I think you're right, because it's something about, you know, us Irish, we have a serious thing for owning our own home. And I always thought that that goes back to the famine when nobody owns their own home, Jeremy is like, you know, it's not a little protection thing that we have. But that's us Irish. And speaking of your international experience, and working with other countries abroad, have you seen stuff in their cultures that you think we should take on board here in Ireland, I would help us with our engineering.

Leo Clancy 12:16

Interesting. I think we're, we're good when we go to places that are just simulating things that are good. They go to somewhere like Israel, or Netherlands to a lesser degree, you know, the level of directness, that that was in those cultures, is something we could probably benefit from at times, you know, I think sometimes Irish people can be a little bit circumspect. And it is that balance of our niceness and, and getting the job done. But the Irish people are more direct than average. But there are little things like that, that we could probably, we shouldn't probably lose what makes us strong, but we could, we could probably still learn some of that. If you look at a society like Germany, you know, where the focus on and value on engineering is so strong and so pervasive. I think we certainly bring back more of that cultural respect for engineering, actually, and not just saying that because among engineers, our podcast today, I actually think it's true that we need to value engineering more, we could, we could certainly learn more about innovation in the way that the United States does it. You know, we looked at commercial numbers this week in various economic reports and the level of innovation in the EU by companies, I think the stats are over 50% of US companies are investing in innovation in some form or other, but only early 30s of European companies are investing in innovation. And if we go back to the construction example that I mentioned earlier, we have companies who are on top of their game in delivering construction projects, I'd like to see more of those companies actually innovating and creating their own products and services that are not the product of the work of the people on a given project. What are new intellectual property-based things that they understand the market will need, in addition to the people effort that we bring, and we probably don't see enough of that, in our industry in various parts of our industry. Some areas were phenomenal. We have amazing startups and scale-up companies that have defensible IP. But I think if more of our services-oriented companies and people who deliver projects for people could start innovating their own products, that would be really interesting. And I think that's very much a US culture.

Dusty Rhodes 14:28

In many ways you're talking about innovation. Have you any kind of particular example in the back of your mind that you're thinking of about somebody abroad that impressed you with innovation?

Leo Clancy 14:38

I'm just trying to think of companies that are analogous to the example he gave no way I'd nearly look locally to some of the innovation being done from the ground up by startups. So if you think of an example, James and extortionate will probably kill me. I keep mentioning exoskeleton if you've come across them, but they're a company in Carlingford the typical way You do Marine Surveying, as you put a big ship in the water with a crew of 10 plus people and it's diesel-powered and you do the marine surveys and cost a fortune to run, and you do it on customer demand. James and his team at x ocean have developed remote control ship that's about the size of an SUV a little bit bigger. Those largely electrically powered such as diesel engines as well, adult surveys controlled by an operator from potentially their kitchen table in Carlingford, or anywhere else in the world, that these chips can be sent and deployed to do marine surveys around the world. So cost differential is huge. The environmental impact is much lower. You know, those are the kinds of solutions that are super interesting for me. I mean, the other big one Combi lifts Mark McVicker and his team and Monahan, which you probably are aware of, they built an incredible facility for with new innovative lifts, you know, there are 14 products, there's some brilliant innovation going on in Ireland. And I think it's not beyond the possibility for Irish companies in various domains, who are already strong on services and delivering projects just start innovating solutions like that within their businesses.

Dusty Rhodes 16:18

So it's kind of from what I hear what you're saying is kind of services are great, but ideas are better. If your current got to take that then because innovation is brilliant from an engineer, thinking of solving solutions and stuff like that, right? How do you get into that kind of innovation area? Because normally, as an engineer, you're told there's a problem with this, we need to fix it. And you've got to but with innovation, it's kind of you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. So what's in your head? Do you see the thought process that people innovate with?

Leo Clancy 16:51

Yeah, I wouldn't say wouldn't read this. It's not. Most of the best innovation is problems that you understand deeply, that do exist. So if you're, if you're a construction company, and you're going to sites every day, and you see those things are done a certain way. And one of the most traditional industries is construction, for instance. So you're going to the site every day, and you see that there's a niche, you want to scratch, actually working out how to start scratching, that itch is probably the hardest part, you know, how do I? How do I put someone on this? So instead of replicating this problem every time and I'm charging my clients, could I have a better business model, where I'm actually eliminating the inefficiency and charging for this product that eliminates that inefficiency. That's an interesting one, that that's hard to do in any business. That's the Kodak moment, you know, Kodak had the digital famously had the digital camera patents an idea in the 80s. But they couldn't bring themselves to not depend on film. And I think we all as engineers need to be thinking about that Kodak moment for all of our businesses. Where do I see something that's a good business today, that I may need to disrupt myself in initially, in order to make myself stronger for the future.

Dusty Rhodes 18:09

So let me follow that then a little bit, if you are looking at your business, or you see something that is happening over and over again, you come up with a novel and interesting and a new way of tackling that problem and solving that problem. That's what we call innovation. We kind of think, how am I going to turn this from an idea in my brain into reality? Because quite often, it could be something quite big that you need help with. Is it at this stage that you approach Enterprise Ireland, or should you do something else first before we start knocking on your door?

Leo Clancy 18:41

As early as you like, and as early as possible, I would say so if you look as if you look at and I have some examples, my head at all use them because I'm not sure at what stage they're at. We have consultancy companies that have done a number of things they've either come to us for. So one really simple thing we can do. If you have an idea, and you don't have an engineer, if you don't have let's say you're a construction company and you don't have a software person, you can go to a university, we can give you a 5000 Euro voucher to spend with the university to get a prototype built. And that's no cost to you, you own the IEP, you just get the vote for most you get the work done, you guys it's delivered for you. You can go higher than that, once you've done that, you can build that up into an innovation partnership where you can get up to 660 5% of the customer, a much larger project done. And this is before you have to commit any full-time permanent people beyond people who can interact with the university on the idea. If you think you can have people on staff who can do it we can help you with an initial feasibility grant to actually explore that idea in detail and they are very substantial. So you can put a few people on this for a year or two. So that's the scale of where we can help early some companies are juicy where they have a services business. They don't want to distract focus from the core, which is right in many cases, they spin out a company. So they'll create a new entity which we can also get behind As a potential co-founder with equity or other ways, so they're de-risking from the core, but they're also given a better headspace some potential to the people who are in that company, and potentially giving some benefit to the people who go with that idea that they might have returned out of that new business in return for their efforts, folks, there's any amount of ways, but just you, thank you for the question. Because you use that as effectively in your question, come to us, as soon as you have an idea, we really want to see innovation probes, and explored by companies as early as possible.

Dusty Rhodes 20:33

One of the things you think of as a company, because I mean, here we are, we're the home with the international firm, and we're seeing headlines lately, like, you know, those three internationals paid. I can't wait, what was the day that 1/3 of all corporation tax three companies, it's, it's insane. So they're huge. But then you're kind of an engineer listening to this, you kind of think, well, actually, I'm just part of a small little engineering company, maybe we're evolved in technology or something like that. Do you think that small emerging tech companies that Ireland are possibly in better shape than the big multinationals are in a better position to be able to innovate?

Leo Clancy 21:10

I don't think it's as binary as that, actually, I think. But, yes, small companies can pivot their model a lot quicker. You know, that's, that's something that's certainly true. We see it everywhere that by the time you work your way up through the innovation process, and large company, at startup can have delivered a product to the market, you know, and that's just a fact of life, I worked on a very large company, I worked at a very small company, I went from 100,000 person company to a 30 person, company. And to those are nice, and the difference is brilliant. And I think small companies often don't realize that superpower that they have, I think large companies can eventually do whatever they want. We talked about this recently, with Chuck GPT, and GPT. For large language models, large companies own a huge amount of computing power, plus, they will take longer to come to market with solutions, you know, small companies, and we've seen this with open AI can actually move faster, where they will get stuck potentially as on the resource needed to scale up an idea but depends on the domain you're in. If it's large, long language models in AI much harder to scale those up because there's a global scarcity of Nvidia chips at the moment. So you're going to hit a barrier, not to mention the money required. But in most other domains, small companies can move fast, I think it can be a much bigger proportional bet, though. So just understanding what you're getting yourself into planning for is making sure that the financial model behind what you're setting out to do is clear, those are important. And again, that's where we can help. So we have people who can help flesh out. An idea from a technical feasibility point of view can also help you with a financial model, the cash flow analysis, and things like that. So that's where we're keen to help more and more companies.

Dusty Rhodes 22:58

I'm not thinking about all these and you know, kind of the agility of being a smaller company and being able to experiment with ideas. And then there's this port from Enterprise Ireland. And you're thinking about not just doing it in this small little rock on the side of the Atlantic, that there's a market of billions and billions out there. What kind of opportunities, from your point of view are there in the world for Irish engineering companies?

Leo Clancy 23:20

Huge opportunity, where I'm getting asked all the time these days, do global conditions mean that we should be getting ready for attraction in exports? And should we be worried about the prospects for Irish companies and possibly globalization going to do for us? You know, I think I think those questions are useful to continue asking, but they're not relevant to where we're at at the moment. We have a huge market in front of us for Irish companies. And the optimism is huge. We survey our companies every year on their sentiment about the future of the markets. Companies are telling us in the high 80s and early 90s have optimism about growing their international markets this year. That's a survey we did earlier this year. And it's borne out to be true. If you look at the large globalization concerns that are out there and say they are they're relatively narrow, actually, worse, aimless. You know, things like semiconductor chip battles between large countries and other things around minerals generally don't affect Irish companies in a systemic way. There are companies that will be affected by Chip shortages and by material shortages and other things. But we're not systemically dependent on our existence exposed to some of the key geopolitical things that are going on. And I think we're in enough markets actually, that we should be resilient to whatever might come in terms of financial shocks. So I'm really optimistic about the future. There's any amount of business out there to be done. We said saw the signs in 2022, the US grew to $5 billion of exports from Irish companies for the first time. Eurozone exports grew by 28% Okay, Last year, construction actually was the biggest country research that grew by 50% in the eurozone. And that is companies out building data centers where we know that there's a market fueled by including Chuck GPT and other applications that will continue for another 10 years as a healthy market. There are markets in biopharma for vaccines. You know, I'm the markets were in our resilience to what may call them and financial markets.

Dusty Rhodes 25:29

You've mentioned chat GPT a few times. And AI, of course, is on everybody's mind. And where should Irish engineers be thinking, for the future, with everything changing? So, so fast?

Leo Clancy 25:42

It depends on your domain, I would say, digital is, is huge. And I think engineers need to be thinking about digital models for the delivery of their products. Even in highly traditional industries, like construction soaks natively, digital businesses going to grow substantially as well. So like the AI models and areas like that, so digital is huge. And even if you think digital isn't relevant to you, you should be thinking again, because digital can be delivered easily from Ireland to anywhere in the world which is unlike a physical product. So even if you're in the physical product business, you could add about valuable revenue stream through digital. Digital is also incrementally the cost of a new digital product once you built one zero, popes, you just punch another piece of software out it doesn't cost you anything to do. So to Highmark the margin model. Sustainability is the other one. So it's the other big secular trend at the moment. But it's right, I mean, there is going to be a revolution. Regardless of what happens with financial markets, we're going to see continued and vastly increasing investment in sustainability. So that is certainly something that every company should be looking at, as an opportunity, but also as a Thresh. If companies don't have sustainability plans, and verifiable ones for their businesses, they will be out of business in three to five years' time. No one will buy from a company that doesn't have a good ESG plan. And they can't verify their own sustainability credentials, saying it's only a matter of time.

Dusty Rhodes 27:11

When you say verifying your sustainability credentials, what kind of is this literally a certificate on the wall? Or what do you mean by that,

Leo Clancy 27:20

that won't be good enough. So you can't just achieve a certificate and call it done, you've got to be able to, for instance, be in control of your scope, one, two, and three emission levels, you've got to understand your supply chain in terms of where the products came from, what environmental impact they had both on carbon and on even things like labor conditions, sources, the finance that you use to build your business and all the other aspects on environmental social governance, you've got to be able to prove through your supply chain, that you are not negatively impacting your customers. So the large customers of all of our Irish companies will demand that they can show that they're not negatively affecting their own environmental stance, and they will go deep, if they haven't gone deep so far, they will go deep in order terms into your ESG credentials and will want to see evidence that you can start over. So searching on the wall is a nice start, but it's not going to get you there. Unfortunately, we can help with that we have for instance, a climate and sustainability voucher which we can give companies, two days of consulting that gets fully covered, which helps have a first look at how you stand at this. So 1800 euros, just helps you take a good look at yourself. We then have various stages of green transformation programs that we can bring to bear for companies. So you can get green Start Green plus green transform, which helps you actually bring in consultants into your business and work with you through this entire chain, train your people. So that's an offer we have it's undersubscribed, Dusty, at the moment, people aren't coming to us for this money, and it's either it's a high level of support 100% cover to the wall, vote your level 80% At the next level 50% After that, so and we're not seeing the demand. 

Dusty Rhodes 29:06

First, let me ask you because everybody's telling you about sustainability. But I don't think an awful lot of people really understand it. And you're saying that it's under subscribed, why is it under-subscribed?

Leo Clancy 29:15

I think people are people are very busy. And I know that sounds like a terrible excuse. But we've had braces. We've had COVID-19 We've had the Ukraine crisis, we have more breaks of coming with globalization and supply chain shortages and shocks, inflation and pricing, and all those things. So companies like mine have huge empathy and sympathy for SMEs in the middle of all that because most do not have a big superstructure of admin people who can take on loads of extra stuff, they're struggling to survive. So I think there's a real risk that this has been to deprioritize because the time as well as understanding and I think that's where we can help though we can help with some of that light touch consultancy that can come in and help with some of the explanations, but that's why it was so forceful, really in my description of what will happen to people in their markets, if we don't do this, right, because this is an existential threat, you know, the day will come when you receive a tender that you won't be able to respond to that might be fundamental to the future of your business, and the day is coming.

Dusty Rhodes 30:20

It's like having a tax clear insert, if you can't rustle one up for 24 hours, you're dead, they're gonna go away. So you need to have something along the same way with sustainability. So I get what you're saying in that it's a threat. If you don't look after this, well, then that's gonna cause you big problems in the next 235 years. If you do look after it, it's opening up a huge amount of opportunities, but what is the actual impact? When we look at sustainability from an engineering point of view or within an engineering? Business? What impact is that actually having on real-world sustainability?

Leo Clancy 30:58

Yep. So depends. Like generally, for businesses, if you have a sustainability plan that will make you better insurance, how you do your work, nevermind meeting your customer's expectations, it's generally a good thing to do that you would look at the emissions from your business that, you know, generally leads you to efficiency, actually, you know, so if you have this good sustainability plan, it should improve and enhance your business, it shouldn't be a cost, you know, look at all the people who scramble to put solar panels in in the last year, when there were more expensive to procure and to deploy, because the business case became immediately obvious when electricity prices went through the roof. That's, that's what if they had done it sooner, it would have cost them less to do and they would have had an immediate buffer against those electricity bills. It's hard to make the capital argument for them, though, unless thing unless things get very expensive. But I think taking those decisions earlier will help offer you because essentially, sustainability is about reducing your consumption and improving circularity. Those are all things that actually reduce costs as well. Ultimately, in the long term. Now, the InVEST ability of them is a challenge. And government is working on a number of measures around ensuring that there's more loan and scram capital available for businesses to invest in sustainability. So that's good. The other thing though, is, in that marketplace, your customers will want to buy from companies that have high sustainability credentials, and that will increasingly be the case you will do better in your markets as well as being more efficient. And the way to do it, and this is where engineering is crucial. Sustainability depends, particularly for a product company, you know, the design cycle is so important when you when you're an engineer, you sit down with a blank sheet, we don't use drawing boards much anymore. But you know, it's the turn it's drawing board to design a product, rather than just sketching out the most optimal engineering design with, whatever the most efficient products are, you now need to be asking yourself, what efficient way the sustainability credentials of those components are. So you might put a component into your design, that is the most efficient. But if it's made using questionable materials, or questionable labor practices, or if it doesn't have a future sustainability plan itself, using that component is going to compromise you with your customers. In the end, it's also going to compromise your potential in terms of costs, it's not sustainable. So these are really good questions to ask generically, even if, even if they're hard once you get your head or under a yawn. And engineers are vital to this, the design process and ensuring the childhood that you have this thought or so in advance is probably fundamental.

Dusty Rhodes 33:41

I think that's kind of going back to a lot of what you have been saying is that you know, you take a small idea, and a smaller dn or a small chain somewhere like that can grow. And it can grow your business here in Ireland, and it can grow internationally and as good. Can I ask you just kind of about the future because the engineer is a very curious kind of people like to look at the big picture. And you had said that 2022 was it was a record year for Enterprise Ireland, do you think we're going to be able to keep up that momentum over the next three, five years?

Leo Clancy 34:14

What's the cause? I hate making predictions, especially about the future. Yeah, so I suppose just one clarification, I always rushed to clarify, this 2022 was a record year for our clients. We don't have record years our clients do. And you know, we're here to support and serve. So. So I think it's an absolute testament to Irish business this, that we've had that record year and we had a record during 21 as well and exports. So Irish businesses performed so well during the pandemic. I'd be very optimistic about where we're going in the future. I think notwithstanding what may happen in the global markets, I think we're going to continue to see growth in Irish business exports, and growth and jobs.

Dusty Rhodes 34:57

Another big thing that's being talked about at the moment is the impact To 2030. It's the government's Research and Innovation Strategy, how's that being implemented?

Leo Clancy 35:05

I'm not very close to us in terms of the day-by-day implementation, but the ambition is very strong. And we're working very closely with our colleagues and Science Foundation Ireland, in the higher education authority in the universities, where we are a research funder as well, NASA, lots of people know this. Enterprise Ireland has a research and innovation team that is 70 People and has a very large budget, and that we deployed into more industry near pipe research applications than Science Foundation, Ireland. So we are part of that an intrinsic part of agenda respectable out of the things we do so going well, I think there's lots of things that we can continue to do better. But that's true in every research ecosystem in the world. I met colleagues from South Africa yesterday, and we compared notes about the things we like to boast about how we're doing and the things we don't like about how we're doing was, I think Ireland has a wonderful research ecosystem. And I think it's something we can build on. For me the priority is getting more industry more engaged, more industry players more engaged with academic institutions. That's, that's the core, I think we need to go to

Dusty Rhodes 36:14

Al, how would you see that then applying to engineering?

Leo Clancy 36:18

Engineering, many, a huge number of the projects that are done in the research ecosystem are done on behalf of engineering companies on our edge projects themselves. So it's, it's intrinsic to engineering. I think bringing out more university-based IP into how companies do their business is going to be a large part of that. But I think it companies guesses so actually, I was speaking to an engineer yesterday morning, he was in the biotech industry, actually telecommunications, but he was he's an IP leader in a telecoms company. And he had a wonderful experience of having done his PhD, which was partly funded by Enterprise Ireland funding way back in the day, in the early noughties, and was able to take some of that IP and create a spin-out company and, and bring that into an industrial environment and create global products. And that's the path you know, we have wonderful people and intellectual property in our universities, where we need to find increasing ways to unlock that and to follow that journey and to get that IP out into the wild and create value and profit for Irish companies.

Dusty Rhodes 37:23

Finally, just from your own perspective, and kind of looking towards 2030, as, as I just mentioned a good number. It's seven years away, seven years is a good number, isn't it? What vision do you have for this little country?

Leo Clancy 37:40

Ireland Inc, in 2031, of all government has said a white paper for enterprise. And if people haven't read us, I'd encourage them to do so it was published last December. It's government's vision for 2030. Actually, in terms of, in many respects. So we've two or three key things, I'd say. First, I think we are aiming that we will have 50% more large Irish companies by that point than we had last year. So and that's, that's ambition, too many Irish companies fail to a certain point and then are sold to global players are, you know, otherwise, leave our shores, we want to keep more of those companies Irish for longer and grow them to a global scale, they believe that's achievable. And seven years of 50% growth from we counted 104 last year to over 150 is a big jump. But I think the momentum is there if we can get behind such as Enterprise Ireland. The other big target that we have for 2030 is a 35% reduction in carbon emissions in respect to Irish enterprise on data is going to be hugely challenging 35% reduction in the context of a growing economy in particular, it's 35%, from the baseline that we would add early this decade, back down NASA have any growth that we see. So that's a serious ambition. But we have to achieve those as part of the government's plan. So we'll be pushing very hard on that as well, folks, I think more scalars companies and significantly reduced carbon emissions from ocean enterprise are probably the two that are top of mind there's adding a bunch of smaller ones,

Dusty Rhodes 39:16

Leo Clancy, It's a huge pleasure, honor, and brilliant to be able to see your point of view on the world, especially in relation to engineering and the amount of ideas and information and ways of looking at things that you've just given to us in is one podcast is absolutely phenomenal. I can't thank you enough for joining us today.

39:37

Thanks, Dusty. And thanks to the team at Engineers Ireland it's a privilege to be here. Really appreciate the partnership and congratulate you all on the work you're doing.

Dusty Rhodes 39:46

If you'd like to find out more about Leo and some of the topics that we spoke about today, you'll find notes and link details in the show notes area on your podcast player right now. And of course, you'll find more information and exclusive advanced episodes of our Engineers Ireland AMPLIFIED podcast on our website at engineersireland.ie. Our podcast today was produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland. If you'd like more episodes do click the Follow button on your podcast player to get access to all of our past and the future shows automatically. Until then, from myself, Dusty Rhodes. Thank you for listening.