In this episode of Amplified, we wrap up our special mini-series on sustainability with an episode discussing the importance of mindset shifts in achieving Ireland's 2030 renewable energy targets. 

Henry Bouchier and Terry Wilkinson, experts in renewable and civil engineering respectively, emphasise the impact of small changes in sustainability. 

Terry highlights cost-effective measures like wildlife ladders for amphibians, while Henry focuses on early integration of biodiversity considerations in projects. Both stress the importance of community engagement, effective communication, and practical steps like reducing material use and measuring embodied carbon. They advocate continuous improvement and collaboration to achieve broader sustainability goals.

THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

●    The need to move beyond technical fixes to sustainability mindset shifts
●    How biodiversity can be enhanced through subtle project design changes
●    The need to move beyond technical fixes to sustainability mindset shifts
●    Designing infrastructure to cope with extreme weather
●    Challenges in balancing safety, cost, and environmental benefit

GUEST DETAILS

Henry Bouchier is a Civil, Environmental and Renewable Engineering Manager at ESB.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/henry-bouchier-271b6b18/

Terry Wilkinson is a Design & Application Engineer at ACO Water Management. As a Civil Engineer for ACO, Terry has focused his career predominantly on the highways industry, both in his 11 years at ACO and prior to this working as a client, consultant and contractor for Local Authority highways. He is a member of the CIHT and is working towards his chartered engineer status with CPD at the heart of this journey. His professional interests are focused on wildlife mitigation solutions and highway surface water management; however, he also has a broader understanding of applications for other areas such as rail, housing, commercial and distribution developments. Biodiversity and wildlife are things he is also passionate about personally and he is actively involved in initiatives such as local toad patrols.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/terry-wilkinson-beng-mciht/

MORE INFORMATION

Looking for ways to explore or advance a career in the field of engineering? Visit Engineers Ireland to learn more about the many programs and resources on offer. https://www.engineersireland.ie/   

Engineers Journal AMPLIFIED is produced by DustPod.io for Engineers Ireland.

QUOTES

We never get to net zero unless we have a wide variety of renewable energy sources, and then we have some backup
— Henry Bouchier, Civil, Environmental and Renewable Engineering Manager at ESB

Often with sustainability, people have these massive identity, massive cost ideas... but often some of the smaller measures can really have positive impacts
— Terry Wilkinson, Design & Application Engineer at ACO Water Management

It's a mindset shift that has technical solutions. We just have to think a little bit differently how we do things
— Henry Bouchier, Civil, Environmental and Renewable Engineering Manager at ESB

Everything in nature and wildlife is linked. If you have a decline of a certain species, it will have a knock-on effect to something else
— Terry Wilkinson, Design & Application Engineer at ACO Water Management

Do one thing right, and then you can go back and improve something else. Just improve one thing is probably the way to do it
— Henry Bouchier, Civil, Environmental and Renewable Engineering Manager at ESB

KEYWORDS

#SustainableEngineering #RenewableEnergy #BiodiversityInfrastructure #ClimateInnovation

TRANSCRIPTION

For your convenience, we include an automated AI transcription

Dusty Rhodes  00:00
Engineers hitting the 2030 renewable targets aren't using different technology, they just think differently. 

Hi there. My name is Dusty Rhodes, and you're welcome to AMPLIFIED the Engineers Journal podcast and the conclusion of our special miniseries on sustainability. 

The gap between now and Ireland's 2030 renewable targets is being widened by 1000s of incremental decisions where engineers stick to the way we've always done it. But the reality is that sustainability isn't an add on expense, it's a design methodology, and it can make projects more resilient, profitable and even easier to approve. 

Our guests today will share the specific mindset shifts and practical steps that transformed their project outcomes proving the biggest sustainability wins can come from the smallest changes in how you think. We're joined by Henry Boucher, Manager, civil environmental and renewable engineering at ESB who has delivered massive wind projects while pioneering community engagement, which literally gets the community invested and also by Terry Wilkinson, highways application engineer at ACO technologies in the UK, whose out of the box sustainable drainage approach proves simple design changes often solve complex environmental challenges without breaking budgets. 

Henry and Terry, you're both very welcome.

Henry Boucher  01:19
Morning Dusty, thank you 

Terry Wilkinson  01:21
Morning Dusty. Thank you very much for having us.

Dusty Rhodes  01:23
So in the first two episodes of this mini series, we've covered the SDGs and the current state of sustainability in Ireland, and particularly with transport today. I'd love to kind of get your experience on what we can do as individual engineers to build more sustainability considerations into our work. So can I ask you both, Do you believe the small changes make a difference? Terry, what do you think?

Terry Wilkinson  01:51
It’s a great question, and I think short answer is yes. Often with sustainability, people have these massive identity, massive cost ideas and massive things. Oh, we need all these huge things that we don't have budget for. And sometimes they're, they're what's needed. Sometimes great, but often some of the smaller sort of measures that you can put in place and think about can really have impacts, positive impacts, on on your projects, for things like wildlife and biodiversity on and around roads, roads so roads and highways is an area that I focus on. And roads, traditionally are there to move people around, I guess, and that's what we think our road is of moving people and freight and that sort of thing. But we don't. Historically, we've never, maybe given great consideration to the big sort of green estate that's next to the road, and it is quite a significant area. And as I say, it doesn't always need to be massive measures. And I think from an engineering perspective, understanding what's needed and having a really good relationship with ecologists, landscape architects, that sort of thing to understand the wider applications can really benefit that. And as I say, if you integrate that into your thinking right from the start, sometimes the solutions come naturally without having to maybe think about bigger infrastructure and stuff to do it sometimes you can easily build it in with without major cost implications.

Dusty Rhodes  03:26
And Henry, in your experience, do you think small changes make a difference?

Henry Boucher 03:30
Yeah, no, I absolutely do Dusty, right? And I would agree with a lot of what Terry says there, and very much building it in early height, and thinking about it early in the projects, I think makes a huge difference. And I'm kind of, I'm lucky where I'm working right that I work in that, in Civil, Environmental, renewable, in ESB, or a developer of infrastructure, so I have an opportunity to work in that, and to try to influence that, what we do there. And I would say over the years, you alluded to at the outset there Dusty over the years, I went very much from thinking this was a technical problem, actually realising actually, it's a mindset shift that has technical solutions. So we just have to think a little bit differently how we do things. And in lots of ways, it's very simple. It's a It's biodiversity, like, like Terry talked about there. And for instance, if you're developing a solar farm, or you're developing something, right? Yeah, there's an opportunity to leave hedgerows and places. There's an opportunity to leave, leave tree stumps there in places. Opportunity to do lots of things that will enhance the biodiversity, or at least will, will, will give it a chance. And that's very much having good relationships and having under some understanding, and being able to kind of bring in ecologist and get some understanding what would be beneficial that very much works there and in lots of other things. It's just very simple in that using less is is a very good start, right? And thinking about how you use less. And so using less in, you know, being efficient in design and concrete. Right? There's a little bit of a conflict there for engineers, because the first thing is, thing can't fall down, or it can't be dangerous. So striking, striking that balance right in you using less. But I think really, the how you drive it, or how you get it really, is start to measure what you're doing, right? So understand and measure what you're doing, you know. So if you know, right, you know, just start measuring your embodied carbon and concrete, then you can focus very quickly on reducing that where possible, you know, so, so I think it's, it's the small steps Dusty and then then measuring what you're doing.

Dusty Rhodes  05:32
Both of you work on very large physical projects, but there's tiny little details in there that people just don't consider Terry and kind of think of yourself particularly and about biodiversity, which is a particular passion of yours. Tell me more about building motorways and wildlife ladders.

Terry Wilkinson  05:53
It's one of my favourite, one of my favourite topics. So, so yeah, with motorways, obviously, when we're looking to drain the motorway. Then, typically we've got gullies on the roads. If you've got amphibians, newts, frogs, toads, that sort of thing, in and around the area, they will often because the slots on the gratings are quite large, obviously, to let water and things in. Unfortunately, that means they will also can be a trap for amphibians. So a real simple, cost effective, very easy to install measure is a is a ladder in a in a gully, so that amphibians can escape. And often, when I tell people this, they might roll their eyes. They might think, Well, what a load of nonsense. That doesn't work. Yeah, and I've got some, I've got some fantastic video footage, which actually shows toads climbing out of ladders, sorry, out of gullies and up these ladders. They're they're really good climbers. And if you put a measure in like that for them, just something that enables them to help themselves, then it can make a really big difference. And as I say, something that doesn't have to be massively costly. It's easy to it's easy to fit and retrofit. So you can install it in existing gullies, or if you're building new schemes and roads, it could do that as well and and as this doesn't impact the effects of the gully, you can still clean the Gully. It's fixed to the sidewall of the gully, but a great, simple but effective solution. And when people see the results, and particularly, sort of, obviously, people want proof that these things work. And over the years, we've seen lots of examples of that, and when people see it in action, I think it really, it really spikes their attention. Really thinks, wow, that's that is actually effective. And it's a it's a simple, cost effective solution.

Dusty Rhodes  07:42
It's a tiny little detail, but it reminds me now, you might know this story does if all the bees in the world were to go away? I mean, my personal opinion is, well, there no honey on the shelves. I don't care. I'm not going to get stung, but mankind would not live for very long if all the bees in the world disappeared. So it's not kind of tiny, little change. And just thinking, when you went into work and said, You know what, guys, I've had this great idea about wildlife learners, this is what I'm trying to think, these little changes, like, you know, how is it perceived? And how did you get people on board?

Terry Wilkinson  08:15
It's, I think you one of the things that you said earlier on really struck a chord with me. And my thing from my own background, as well as engineers, we don't like change. We don't like doing things differently, and we're not always the best, the most open minded when it comes to new solutions. If it's not tried and proven, if there's not a standard that says This beats this standard, or must fit to this then we're always a bit reluctant. But nature and wildlife doesn't necessarily follow strict standards and rules. And when you when you have these ideas and you implement these measures, and you see them, you see them work, I think that's the thing. It's it's trying to get across and demonstrate to people that they do actually work. But also, and you said that the bees is a really good point as well, because often people like, What do I care about a few toads? And what does it matter if they you know, if we lose a few toads? You know, there's ecologists that would explain this far better than I can. But everything in nature and wildlife is is linked. So if you have a decline of a certain species, whether that be toads or bees, or whatever, it will have a knock on effect to something else, either higher up the food chain or lower down the food chain. And bees is a really good point. I can't remember. I've got my statistics exactly right, but it's something around bees are responsible for, for their pollination, directly and indirectly, for around 80% I think, of the food that we eat. So as you say, you might initially think, oh, yeah, won't have much honey, but it has a much, much bigger effect to knock on effect than that. And I think when I think the trick is trying to get people to kind of understand that it's not just about that individual species, and think, Okay, we might lose a few of those. What's the problem? Yeah.

Dusty Rhodes  10:00
So that's kind of one really, really small idea, and it does make it. It literally makes a global difference. Henry, while wind farms are big projects, they're not the full story. Do you consider individual projects as standalone or are they crucial components of a broader national sustainability strategy?

Henry Boucher  10:19
I think it's the it's the latter, very much Dusty, right? So very much, wind farms are part of the solution. Solar farms are part of the solution. And then storage is a big part of the solution, and being able to crack really inter seasonal storage, so there's no, there's no one silver bullet here, and also can as part of all of that, right is efficiency and empowering people and customers that they can get the best, best use from their energy retrofitting homes. The whole lot is, is intertwined, really, right? And we never get to 10 net zero, or or, and I think the focus over the last while has gone maybe off the off the net zero and more on security and security supply, just because of the geopolitical situation worldwide. And really we never get to that unless we have a we have a kind of wide variety of kind of renewable energy sources, and then we have some backup at the moment, that's thermal, but big innovations coming in in energy storage and battery storage and different types of storage, which will help alleviate that as well. So, yeah, I think, I think it's everything Dusty and it's, it's kind of facilitating everything, and it's building awareness in with everybody as well, like the part they play, and the part they can play, right? And it's kind of, it's awareness. And I think for for engineers, you talk to you talk there, I think some of the things that can be done around biodiversity, I think it's just understanding, right? We have an impact. And we were saying earlier, maybe people don't like change, but I'd say, maybe, right? But I'd say also, people are very busy, so it's very hard to kind of your quickest. The quickest solution is to maybe do what you did before. So we need to just change thinking a little bit, you know, as in, okay, this what I did before, but for me on a wind farm. Is it possible maybe to reduce the amount of material that needs to leave the site? Can we, kind of, can we set the roads up? Can we make better use of the of the material as they are on site? Do we need to import as much as we do all things like that around? Do we need to kind of take out hedgerows? Or can we actually minimise some, some of the impact there as well? Right? So there's, there's lots of little things that you can do that all add up to quite a bit, and managing water, managing water, managing the impact on the environment, all of that, right? There's lots of things we can do that will have a difference, yeah,

Dusty Rhodes  12:45
So what kind of practical early steps then do you take to help embed sustainability and streamline the deliverability of projects? 

Henry Wilkinson  12:55
So some of the, some of the practical steps we would take is, we would look at, we'd look at the carbon and embodied carbon in in things like where the major materials that have embodied carbon in them, for instance, right? Because that is, that is probably the biggest impact, or one of the biggest impacts. So we would look at how much concrete, how much steel we are using, and then see, well, is there an opportunity to reduce or streamline that we would also look early on in projects, how can we make them more circular, right? Or, how can we drive circularity into them, looking at what will happen at at end of life and reuse. So maybe designing things that that can be reused later on, or potential reuse later on. So that would that would come into, you know, that would look at locations where for some of the infrastructure is located, so substations, opportunities to extend them, maybe later on with population growth, and that's driving that in looking at how the sites we pick and the impact that has on biodiversity, and is there opportunity to to enhance biodiversity on some of those that won't be there in every site, particularly the urban ones, but it, but it is there, and some of the more rural ones. So So building that in, but really it is thinking about how much we use, and if I was to summarise that, I think it's reducing what we use, and also just being aware of the impact of where you are and how you can minimise the impact of where you are enough

Dusty Rhodes  14:24
And literally just be thinking that from from from day one, both of you have spoken about Mother Nature and biodiversity and everything like that. The other problem that we encounter is human beings. I hate to say it, and community engagement is hugely important to a lot of projects. And Leo, there's been a lot of controversy over the years about wind farms and all that kind of stuff. Henry, just one more question for you on this from your own experience, what are the most effective communication strategies that you have used just to build trust and have these people actually end up supporting sustainable projects?

Henry Boucher 15:00
Yeah, so I think it's really important to engage, and I'd say we have learned this over the years just if it's really important to engage early on projects and explain to people what you're what you're planning to do and work, work through community groups right work through engagement in the schools and and as you go along, right?
 It's very in some ways, it's very simple. It’s to do what you said you were going to do. So if you kind of made commitments, honour them and work, work with the community. Be conscious, right? You have an impact. There's an impact, most definitely during construction and and in some cases, right, there's been impacts after construction, right, where one or two residents might, might have been adversely infected. You’ve  seen some high profile cases there recently in the papers on that right? So I think it's, it's really on, on everybody right to, kind of, if there is a problem, face up to it and solve it, right? Don't, don't leave it, you know? And was, I think it's very much changed now, right? But if you look at it would have seen these as kind of faceless groups, right? They just come in and build a wind farm and go. But most wind farms now, right? There's a community benefit fund, and there's lots of benefits to local communities. Lots of them are used by people, right? 
They go walking around them, and that's right, they open up trails, and that as well, they produce energy. They produce energy that's kind of very important to us now, particularly with what's going on geopolitically, and that, right? So Ireland, quite a high percentage of that of energy comes comes from renewables for an island on the west of Europe, the percentage that’s come on from that. So it’s explaining what the impacts will be and what you're doing to minimise the impacts Dusty, and then following through on what you said you did. And it's not a faceless, faceless entity just developing it and gone for good.

Dusty Rhodes  16:58
Communication so important and actually solve so many problems, especially at the early stage away from communications. Terry, given the increasingly frequent extreme weather events that we're having now across the UK and Ireland, what practical design principles do you think help systems fail less and recover quickly?

Terry Wilkinson  17:19
Well, that's a great question. So we, as you, as you rightly say, you know, the more extreme rainfall we're getting now we've got some of the standards that we've got in place were written quite a long time ago, I think, particularly some of the roads and highway standards from sort of transport infrastructure Ireland and the DMRB in the UK, They’re pretty similar in terms of what they look to design to, in terms of rainfall, and I think they're kind of 30, 40, plus years old. So it was a very different environment then. So I think one of the things you need to think about is you've got a standard in place, but you'd need to think about when it hits those extremes, where the where the water is going to go. So you might design for no flooding, for sort of leaving the highway for a one in 100 year event. So up to that, you'll think, okay, where's that water going to go? Can I route it? Where can I route it to? And I think we've got, there's a lot of software capability out there now that you can accurately model these, you can put in your, your sort of ground surfacing and that sort of thing, to understand where that goes. So I think having that, utilising that technology is, is very beneficial in that regard. But it's, I think it's, it's to think about the standard design around the standard but also going beyond that and looking at what happens when it goes outside of that. Because as you say that, that is happening more and more.

Dusty Rhodes  18:51
Are you able to give me an example?

Terry Wilkinson 18:53
IF you're designing to or looking to subs and sustainable drainage systems, we've got the good practice as designed to the four pillars of water quantity, water quality, amenity and biodiversity. And historically, water quantity has always been the kind of the main issue in terms of drainage. It's an issue. Let's deal with it. Let's get it off the side so it's not causing a safety issue, which you know, rightfully so, arguably that that is one of the more kind of important pillars. But when you, when you certainly, if you look for extreme events in design to extreme events, if you can utilise other systems, like nature based solutions, and you can benefit, help to benefit nature with that, maybe with this excess water, you can look where, where you can utilise that and help it for irrigation of sort of trees and the sort of the environment habitats, where, where wildlife lives. So there's, I think there's, there's definitely opportunities to to utilise that. And maybe. In the past, we've we've just like, quickly tried, okay, let's get rid of the water, put it in the sewer and get rid of it. But if we can utilise that excess water in these in these ways, then it benefits. It has a multitude of benefits, which, yeah, say, not not just for the safety, but for wildlife and environment as well.

Dusty Rhodes  20:18
Terry, continuing on from community involvement, collaboration in general, is a hugely important across disciplines within the industry. How have you found people are working with you to achieve more environmental goals?

Terry Wilkinson 20:33
Really good. Actually. In the last sort of, in the last few years, I've had an awful lot of engagement with ecologists. In particular, I kind of went to a webinar about four years ago that was that was kind of run by an ecologist and talking about the importance of collaboration. And we've since gone on and set up a few events trying to improve communication and collaboration with the likes of engineers and ecologists. And when you, when you start to encourage that people are really, actually, really receptive to it. And I think a lot of it is about understanding, understanding it from the other disciplines point of view. So I think from engineers and ecologists point of view, often without a great deal of understanding of what each other does? You can, kind of, you can almost feel like you're, you're against each other. And, you know, ecologists might say, what? Why is the engineer recommending this? This is terrible for nature, precisely. Yeah. And the engineers thinking, Well, what? Why is the ecologist saying, you know, these, these, these nukes, are going to hold up my development and that sort of thing, I just need to get when you, when you have those discussions right from the outset, and you understand what the challenges are, you can really actually prove effective and efficient solutions that that get over those barriers that I think historically, have kind of been left till further down the line, when, when the designs set in stone or virtually set in stone, and you're just trying to kind of do the best you can, To kind of oversee a problem that maybe could have been avoided if you've had that discussion right at the start. And I think I'm certainly, I'm starting to see it more and more now, where we're discussing things right at the outset of a scheme the ecologists are inputting from their specialist side of things so can understand things like species, the types of habitats, and what needs to be done. And the engineers think, Okay, well, we could. We could have a simple solution here to to kind of help mitigate against that. If we're kind of cutting across these habitats, can we reconnect them in some way, whether that be major infrastructure, like a green bridge or an underpass or a culvert or or planting, or habitats that can be beneficial and sympathetic to that. And I think when you see it right, when you address it right from the outset, and having that collaboration, it's really beneficial. It's actually really rewarding as well, when you when you come up with those solutions together and collaboratively from the start, and then everyone's keen to kind of work towards that, that solution as well.

Dusty Rhodes  23:00
Henry for I'm gonna ask this to both of you, actually, but Henry first, for an experienced engineer listening today, all right, who's looking to deepen their role in renewable energy development? What are the key skills or knowledge areas they should focus on? Do you think 

Henry Boucher  23:19
I think for me, anyway, sustainability is so broad, like it covers such a multitude. When you start looking at everything, you nearly talk yourself out of it. It's so broad. So I think it's a bit like what Terry has alluded to. It's kind of building the understanding. So I'd focus on an area that you have an interest yourself, and you know whatever, whatever that is, if that's the biodiversity. If it's more on the technical concrete or steel, or if it's just very much a drive now on around the circular economy, and very much, I'd focus on whatever the area is. And I'd say, do one thing right, and then you can go back and improve something else. But I say just, just improve one thing is probably the way to do it. So for example, we we would have had projects where we've, we've reused some of the infrastructure. We've you reuse some of the, some of the, some of the diesel generators on battery projects. We've reused some existing ducting on projects. And that was all people who just, just did that, and kind of did it quietly, right? Wasn't it, until you ask, and you find, you find out some of these things. So, and that was all just people thinking, I actually, I could use that again, you know? And that'll work as most sustainable building might probably go when you're in at the moment, even it might be very energy efficient, but it's, it's there, right? So if you can reuse existing infrastructure, first, I would say, is probably the main thing, and then I think, focus on an area interested in see if you can make it something that makes a difference there, and then go back again. You can improve it again. Let's say, just do something. Do something,

Dusty Rhodes  24:55
I love that. That's a brilliant, brilliant attitude. Just do one thing. Just do. One thing, it's fantastic. Terry for yourself, what key skills or knowledge areas should engineers focus on if they want to develop more? 

Terry Wilkinson 25:06
 I think it's very different than it was sort of when I did my degree, however many years ago that was now too many to think about. It was, it was quite you know, you did your you did your standard things, like your structures, your soil mechanics and that sort of thing. There was very little. And when I did my education around the environment for it, it was, it was kind of a, quite a seem to be quite a new, excuse me. It seems to be quite a new sort of module within things that which is quite surprising now, so I think understanding a lot around the environment is very important for for engineering now, not just in terms of biodiversity, but everything that that links into in terms of climate change and carbon and everything else like that as well.

Dusty Rhodes  25:56
Now both of you are from very different backgrounds, but we're talking about changing the mindset. Is there anything you want to ask each other before we head off into the sunset?

Terry Wilkinson 26:09
Can ask you a question? I really like the comment that you made back there, Henry, about find something you're interested in and just kind of and do something. Do, sort of do one thing. I think that's a really, really good sort of ethos. What would you if you could kind of go back and tell your your younger self one thing, or ask your younger self one thing? I don't know. Would it be something like that? What sort of advice would you give your, your younger self starting out in your career?

Henry Boucher 26:38
I was starting out. So I'd say, I probably would say to myself, look at it's all about communication. I think probably took me a while to cop onto that one. Terry, nice. So it's all about communication. And like, the more effective you can communicate on things right, the more effective you'll be at getting buy in and getting getting things done, really. So yeah, I think, I think that's probably is right, and I probably realize you don't have to do everything yourself, right? You can get people, people will, we kind of move along and come along with you as well, right? But probably took me a while to cop on to that as well, right? But, and maybe the two of those, and can ask just from yourself. Terry, then, are you seeing people come and looking, really for more around kind of environmental and sustainability? Or do you think, at the moment, is it kind of a cost decision? I just cost always kind of coming in there, right? Or what? What do you see?

Terry Wilkinson  27:38
Cost is certainly a big factor in it, I think, and it's still often seen as a or still often thought, I think, as a nice to have, rather than, you know, we must do this. And I think, like anything, I guess, you need, you need to drive it. You need sort of policies and legislation for it, often, until it's not legislated for, things aren't going to be aren't going to be done. We're starting to see, I personally, I'm starting to see a lot more, and I think maybe some of it's due to the to the collaboration and the fact that it delivers wider benefits. So I'm starting to see more more interest, more discussion, and more more people looking at sort of environmental improvement, sustainability improvements, certainly on sort of going back to kind of wildlife, on the sort of connectivity. I think we're understanding that roads, linear infrastructure, rail, that sort of thing, is very much a barrier to wildlife. And we are starting to see that more and more, there's quite a disparity, I think, between between policy and legislation across the UK and Ireland. Each kind of nation actually has, has quite different legislation standards around a lot of it. And I think it will be nice to have a bit more of a coordinated Yeah, sort of thinking across the yeah across that to kind of help help us to to understand where we can go.

Dusty Rhodes  29:19
That's a whole other bag of worms mini series. Just listen. Let's leave it there for today. If you'd like to find out more about Henry and Terry and some of his topics that we did speak about, you'll find notes and link details in the description area of this podcast. Henry Boucher manager Civil Environmental and renewable engineering at ESB and Terry Wilkinson, highways Application Engineer at ACO technologies. Thank you both so much for joining us today.

Henry Boucher 29:48
Thanks, Dusty, Thanks, Terry. Bye. 

Terry Wilkinson 29:50
Thank you, Dusty, thank you Henry,

Dusty Rhodes  29:52
If you enjoyed our podcast today, do share with a friend in the business. Just tell them to search for Engineers Ireland in their podcast player. The podcast is produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland and for more on sustainability and engineering, do visit our website at engineers ireland.ie Until next time for myself. Dusty Rhodes, thank you for listening to our special sustainability miniseries. Take care.