Engineering culture remains trapped in outdated norms, risking the mental health and retention of top talent. Relying on diversity metrics alone fails to solve the underlying problem of workplace culture.
True success requires moving beyond surface-level attraction to fostering genuine inclusion and psychological safety. This shift is not just an ethical imperative; it is essential for team performance, innovation, and industry wellbeing.
Joining us to dissect how firms can build these inclusive cultures are ESB civil engineer Tymora Freeman-Stannett and OutEngineered representative Poggy Murray Whitham. They share practical insights on how to transition from empty policies to meaningful everyday changes that ensure every professional feels seen, heard, and valued.
THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT
● Why traditional lad culture alienates LGBTQ+ professionals
● Distinguishing tokenistic diversity from genuine inclusion
● Connecting psychological safety to industry mental health
● Real-world impact of external political pressures on DEI
● Simple everyday actions for effective allyship
GUESTS DETAILS
Tymora Freeman-Stannett
Tymora Freeman-Stannett is a civil engineer at ESB, where she actively manages the construction of utility-scale solar farms powering Ireland's green transition. Throughout her career, Tymora has been out and proud, serving as an active advocate within ESB’s LGBTQ+ Employee Resource Group. Outside of hard hats and site plans, she is the Chair of the Irish Games Association, championing safe, inclusive, and accessible community spaces.
Connect with Tymora
Poggy Murray Whitham
Poggy Murray Whitham is a prominent member and representative of OutEngineered, an organisation dedicated to connecting, supporting, and elevating LGBTQ+ professionals and allies across the engineering and tech sectors. Poggy's work centres on breaking down systemic industry barriers, driving corporate representation, and building active networks that ensure engineering offices and physical construction sites alike are welcoming environments for all.
Connect with Poggy
QUOTES
"Diversity without inclusion just leads to tokenism. Inclusion breeds diversity". - Poggy Murray Whitham
"You feel like you've come into a truth as opposed to a facade". - Tymora Freeman-Stannett
"Inclusion is making sure that all of those people are heard, are seen, and genuinely have a voice within the organisation". - Poggy Murray Whitham
"Part of allyship is opening your mind to that. You can ask the questions, but understand someone might not be prepared to give you the answer. So you have to do the work yourself". - Tymora Freeman-Stannett
TRANSCRIPTION
For your convenience, here is an AI transcription
Dusty Rhodes 0:01
Right now, on Amplified.
Poggy Murray Whitham 0:03
Diversity without inclusion just leads to tokenism. Inclusion breeds diversity. The reverse isn't always true. Inclusion is making sure that all of those people are heard, are seen, and genuinely have a voice within the organisation, and that's where organisations tend to fall down.
Dusty Rhodes 0:23
Hello there, and welcome to Engineers Ireland Amplified, the podcast showcasing the stories shaping the future of Irish engineering. My name is Dusty Rhodes. Traditional workspace cultures can sometimes make it hard for LGBTQ+ professionals to feel supported, meaning firms risk missing out on great talent. In a perfect world, every site, every office should be a safe, welcoming environment where everyone can perform to their best. Joining us to chat about how we build that culture are ESB civil engineer Tymora Freeman-Stannett and from Outengineered Poggie Murray Whitham. You're both very welcome to Amplify. Thanks for joining us.
Poggy Murray Whitham 1:00
Thank you very much.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 1:01
Thanks for having me.
Dusty Rhodes 1:03
Tymora, maybe I can start with you. Can you kind of just give us an overview from your point of view as to what the state of play is today for LGBTQ+ professionals who are working in engineering? Well, it's just you know, if you meet somebody in a bar, how do you kind of give them the elevator pitch, as it were?
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 1:19
In some parts, a hell of a lot better than it used to be, and in other ways, significant improvements are needed. Engineering is a field that can be heavily male-dominated, and also can have, in especially in site levels of engineering, a kind of-I don't know how better to describe it, but I would go with the term a lad's environment, where you get that mentality around being a little bit more boisterous potentially, and maybe not having that level of conversation you would have in an office. You know, it's a bit more of a male-dominated area, and for a lot of LGBTQ+ people, that could be an intimidating area to go into openly as yourself. Certainly, for members of the queer community, being in heavily grouped together environments where you know there's a certain rapport that you would expect from people can be an intimidating place to come out.
Dusty Rhodes 2:27
Yeah.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 2:27
So we are doing way better than we used to be. You know, 30 years ago that would have been illegal. These days it's more accepted, but there is still mentality in certain areas of engineering which tends to be more site based than office based. That is a bit more repressive in a way.
Dusty Rhodes 2:49
Poggy, you're coming at it from a different point of view. Then, how do you see the state of play for LGBTQ+ professionals in engineering?
Poggy Murray Whitham 2:56
I would largely agree with Tymora. I think the masculine cultural norms, the expectations that are put on people who work in engineering, as Tymora referred to, there are very prevalent in the engineering sector and have been for a long time. Taking a step back, not just looking at the LGBTQ+ community, there are expectations on people who work within engineering of how to behave, things you can do, things you can't do. Particularly looking at perceived weakness, so showing emotion, for example, particularly for men who make up around 80-5% of the engineering profession, that perception of weakness then really plays into things like psychological safety, belonging, things that unfortunately then lead to high rates of self-harm and suicide, and this is talking about the majority workforce within engineering. If you then add on to that the isolation that comes from being within the queer community, or being a woman within engineering, or being from a minority ethnic background within the engineering sector, or any other difference, it just adds to that barrier, really.
Dusty Rhodes 4:03
From your experience, do you think because engineering has been, you know, a male-dominated field for a long time, and a lot of engineers are going like, you know, we need more females, we need more balance, we need more diversity, because that just ends up having a better job. But it's hard to attract people in into the business. But engineering is not the only male-dominated field. Do you think, like, if you were to compare it to other male-dominated fields, that society as a whole is changing, albeit slowly, but it's changing?
Poggy Murray Whitham 4:32
It is changing, certainly, is changing. And engineering and manufacturing construction are doing better at getting more diversity into those sectors. I mean, even if you look at, and I know there's only a slight difference here, but certainly in the UK, manufacturing specifically versus engineering, manufacturing has nearly twice the proportion of women in it as engineering does, which is, you know, quite a significant difference there, and other male-dominated fields or traditionally male-dominated. Have done a lot better at increasing diversity within their professions. Something I think engineering is not doing particularly well is focusing on diversity rather than focusing on inclusion, and there is a distinction there. There seems to be a lot of focus, and understandably so, on attraction, on trying to get more people into engineering, and not so much focus on keeping people in engineering and treating them well once they're in. And we have seen through various different research papers that I've been involved in, and some of which I've led on, that particularly women in the engineering sector are leaving in droves around mid-career, between the ages of around 30-five to 40-four, and that is not because of a lack of diversity; it's because of a lack of inclusion. So yes, we need to get more people into the industry, but we'll need to make sure we're actually treating them well once we have them in.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 5:50
Yeah, if I could just add on to that, I would say that we do have that issue in the industry where attracting people to the business is part of hiring policies and trying to make yourself appealing as an employer is a huge part of putting out advertisements. But on that note, if you go the extra step and start making that inclusivity part of everyday occurrences, not just part of hiring practices, you then add on to the benefit of having employees that see that reflected every single day. So, if you're coming into a business and they've been absolutely lovely to you, and the interviews, and you've had great rapport with everybody, and then you come into an office that's dull and lifeless, you're going to immediately feel the reflection of the business, whereas if you come into an office that is reflecting that interview and the conduct of the people that did the interview, you feel like you've come into a truth as opposed to a facade. So companies continuing to deliver on their promises and making inclusivity and diversity an important part of everyday work is essential.
Poggy Murray Whitham 7:08
I completely agree that diversity without inclusion just leads to tokenism. Inclusion breeds diversity. The reverse isn't always true.
Dusty Rhodes 7:16
Yeah, and you're right. Tokenism is no good to anybody. Diversity you can see kind of employers kind of because they're looking for different people, different experiences, and different points of view, and all that kind of stuff. Inclusion might be-it's certainly a new concept for me. All right, can you give me just some examples of what you mean by inclusion and making that part of the ethos of a company, Poggy?
Poggy Murray Whitham 7:38
Sure. So when we talk about diversity, we're talking about the different people who represent the organisation.
Dusty Rhodes 7:43
Yeah.
Poggy Murray Whitham 7:44
Different people from different backgrounds, and I'm not just talking about ethnicity or sexual orientation, but things like socioeconomic background, what university you went to, what education.
Dusty Rhodes 7:53
That's exactly what I meant by diversity. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Poggy Murray Whitham 7:56
Inclusion is making sure that all of those people are heard, are seen, and genuinely have a voice within the organisation, and that's where organisations tend to fall down.
Dusty Rhodes 8:07
Do you think this is something that happens with organisations where they just don't listen to people who work for them?
Poggy Murray Whitham 8:13
Yeah, I mean, it's just a human thing.
Dusty Rhodes 8:15
Do you know what I mean? It's like that's the job. Do what you're told.
Poggy Murray Whitham 8:19
Yeah,
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 8:19
Yeah, absolutely. You can definitely have human resources and stuff that are really great allies to everybody, and you can have some that are like running into a brick wall trying to make change.
Dusty Rhodes 8:30
So taking away all you know, kind of labelling people, which we don't want to do. All right, but just looking at that as operating a business and operating an engineering firm, how do you make all staff feel included? What changes would you like to see? And again, I'm just kind of looking for examples of things that can be done tomorrow.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 8:51
Yeah, for example, in the USB we have employee resource groups. So we have one for accessibility, we have one for ethnicity, we have one for the LGBTQ+ community. There's a family one and a gendered. So, like we have all of these groups that their job is to come together to represent the employees within the ESB, to listen to the voices of the people talking to them, and to work together as a team to make positive changes in the ESB itself. So for some of us, it's as simple as running events and making sure that we've got that visibility. For others, it's saying this is something that's important to our culture and something we would typically celebrate. Doesn't get celebrated in Ireland because it's not part of the Irish culture.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 9:39
Yeah, but we as employees are able to bring that into the ESB and celebrate it with our coworkers and be seen. And certainly for me, it's a case of I want rainbow flags everywhere, but that's, you know, that's just simple visibility there.
Dusty Rhodes 9:58
But going back to kind of tokenism. It's like, okay, great. We can have all these groups, and we can do this, and we can have nice nights out, and all that kind of stuff. Is anything coming back? Because I think you both have a really different point of view, right? Because tomorrow you're working for a very large networked organisation, and Boggy, you were kind of self-employed as a team of one, working with lots of various people and getting lots of different points of view, which is terrific.
Poggy Murray Whitham 10:20
Just to put that into context, though, I spent most of my career in automation engineering, working for very large German and but global automation engineering companies, and worked up from entry level up to senior management within those organisations. So I'm very, very used to those large. Excellent.
Dusty Rhodes 10:35
So you're like a butterfly. So you're able to see how all of these various different firms work. Yeah,
Poggy Murray Whitham 10:40
I've had the experience with the large corporates, and now in the job that I do now, with being an independent consultant, but working through the Engineering Council, Engineering Professor Council, and Royal Academy of Engineering here in the UK, working with various different companies, I get various different perspectives.
Dusty Rhodes 10:55
So, Tymora, thinking about the ESB and your experience there, like you know, there are lots of various groups, and they want to be heard, and they're throwing ideas at the corporation. Does anything ever come back? Does anything ever get done?
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 11:07
Yes, absolutely. One of the biggest things that happened with collaboration with gender ERG and the LGBTQ+ ERG was the implementation of gender policy, which made inclusions for trans and gender non-aligning people to explore themselves and to come up with transition plans or discuss how they want to present themselves in the workplace and basically providing support for people to come out in terms of gender expression and obviously gender identity as well,
Dusty Rhodes 11:42
Poggi. Can I get your experience then? Because you have experienced, you know, kind of lots of organisations. Are you getting the same thing that Tymora's experience?
Poggy Murray Whitham 11:50
In some places, yes. I think just to come back to the initial question, one of the things I would say is that over a long period of time, we have. I would agree with what Tymora said. We have improved over decades. Yeah, compared to 30 years ago, yes, we are in a much better place now. What I would say is that in recent years, things haven't been progressing that much. I think in some places, especially in the UK, not necessarily in Ireland, things have started to regress in some areas. I think influence the political situation currently in the UK, in the US, and other places around the world have made it increasingly difficult for some organisations to progress with diversity, inclusion, and equity work, which has led to some very large organisations-not going to name specific ones-but some international and global organisations having to defund and restrict ERG employee resource group activity, pull out of things like pride events. We've seen various different things happen, basically under threat of you can't be seen to do this, or you will lose contracts with various different other organisations or governments, or you know other work like that. So in the past few years, I would say things have become increasingly hostile, and I know that's a very strong word to use, but it does feel like that. And particularly again in the UK, with the recent Supreme Court ruling and the EHRC code of practice for trans and gender non-conforming people within our sector, it's become a very difficult place to be, and difficult in what way? With rights being rescinded, rights that the trans and non-binary community have had for a long time. You know, particularly when you're looking at places that have, for example, changing rooms or other facilities like that, where people are now unsure of what the policy is about where they come and can't use, and when I say people, I mean both employers and employees, because guidance has been all over the place for a while now.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 13:51
Just to add on to that point, there are situations where people are literally having to plan their entire days around where they could maybe use the bathroom, and when you're getting people to the point where they're worried about whether or not they'll even be able to use basic facilities, it's not a good reflection on the current state. While Ireland is tending to hold fairly well in the current rights and holding up their representations, we're still falling behind in many ways. And even here, we can look towards things like conversion therapy as an example of exceedingly poor practice. It's not illegal here, and it is an abusive system that is still in place. So, as much as we can applaud all of the really good progressive work, and we can celebrate every step that comes along the way, it is important to remember just how many more steps need to come before that proper equality and representation is available.
Dusty Rhodes 14:56
I find it quite concerning that so much progress has been made. And I know you're saying that in the last 30 years, but in Ireland, how long ago? Maybe 60 years ago, when a woman got married, she had to stop working.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 15:09
Yeah, she couldn't even open in a bank account without her husband's.
Dusty Rhodes 15:12
Exactly. Do you know what I mean? So that's kind of like that 60 years ago, and the last 30 years has been. And now you're saying this kind of. Why do you think it's rolling back? Why? Because it takes so long for an employer to put something into place and to write these things into their guidelines and to make part of policy. Do you think the employers are being put under pressure from outside sources?
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 15:35
Yes, absolutely. As Poggy very aptly put earlier, it's external pressures from things like governments, and when you're signing contracts with people or with companies, if those companies have decided that they have a more conservative view and don't want to support things like that, they can then apply that pressure onto companies and lean on that hard enough that the threat of removing that contract is enough to make a company change, and it's really unfortunate.
Poggy Murray Whitham 16:07
I know of several large, even UK-based engineering companies that have a global presence who have had to defund ride-related activities because of contracts they have with the U.S. MOD, for example.
Dusty Rhodes 16:23
Okay, yeah, violence
Dusty Rhodes 16:25
Yeah, I know it. It is a huge, huge thing because at the end of the day, money talks, and when you're getting up at government level, there's all kinds of things that. Do you know what? It makes me feel kind of powerless that this stuff is going on in the world, and this pressure is being exerted at that kind of a level. You guys have got more balls, is the word I'm trying to think of, than I do. No, but you're part of an organisation. You want to change the world. I'm just sitting back, going, "This is terrible". What ways can people, you know, kind of make their voice heard and say, "Hang on a minute, we want a good inclusive workplace to work in".
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 17:01
Going to say, you're not sitting back. You're doing an active panel with two people who are involved. So that's not sitting back. That's spreading the word. Yeah, basically, yeah. Giving platforms to those voices can make a huge difference. Like we are people that may have a couple of 100 people worth of reach in local circles, but the second you start putting that out to big panels and podcasts and other forms of media, you're suddenly reaching 1000s of people. Yeah, and the biggest part of forming allies and promoting allyship is humanising the issue. Like at the end of the day, every single problem we face is a human problem, and unfortunately, a lot of the scapegoating that is happening with gender non-conforming community, the trans community, is because people haven't met those people, they haven't seen them, they haven't had that first encounter with someone who is directly impacted by this. It's very easy to throw the book at someone when you don't even see the book land.
Dusty Rhodes 18:01
Yeah.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 18:02
But, or through the brick, rather, I would say in this case. But it's a lot harder when you're staring someone in the face. So it's about putting a face to that name and getting that visibility as well.
Poggy Murray Whitham 18:17
Absolutely. I mean, so something that I would say is allyship is very easy when there's no risk, but now more than ever, we really need people who truly believe themselves to be allies to stand up and to speak up for us when we're not necessarily in the room. And the reality is, with the way that the demographic of the engineering profession is made up, that certainly in senior management levels, it's highly likely that there won't be somebody from the LGBTQ+ community in those types of boardrooms and those positions. So we need people to speak up for us who are in those rooms. And I would agree with Samora on the dehumanisation of this. I mean, I've been in DEI for 1718, years now; I've held national positions all the way from university level up to what I do now, working with, you know, as I mentioned before, the Engineering Council and various different companies across the UK and internationally. And something that I say quite frequently is that data can give us headlines and policy can help set the stage, but it's stories that connect us. And you know, as much as I enjoy doing the research side of things and getting those numbers and things that can shock people, we need to be telling the stories behind what's actually happening to get people invested.
Dusty Rhodes 19:33
So, what's one of your favourite stories that you've heard that you like to share tomorrow? Go on, give me a story.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 19:38
A lot of my personal stories are in just that they are personal. They are people around me. But one that kind of impacted me very early on was actually one that my mother helped with. Now I grew up in rural Roscommon, not known for voting yes in the marriage equality referendum. Very shameful moment for me. But when I was younger, I distinctly remember my mother taking me to an event where a trans woman was talking about her life experience, and this was not something that would commonly happen in Roscommon. It happened in a place called the Melting Pot, which was just that I was meant to be a melting pot, all sorts of different people coming together in a community space, and that whole conversation went into obviously nothing in depth because it was an open high level discussion, but it went into how much transitioning changed her life for the better, the difficulties she faced, but the euphoria of it and the importance that had on her life and her outcome and the darkness she had before that transition, and that was an incredibly eye-opening moment because at that point I didn't know what the trans experience was. I didn't know what being transgender was. I, I mean, I watched The Birdcage, and I'd watch Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, and all those such like flamboyant movies, and my my grandmother had put them on, so I came from a history of people being quite open and accepting. But again, like I said, I hadn't experienced it until that point, and that was a story that really stuck with me. And since then, I've had friends and family members go through that transition and come out the other side saying, "I have never felt more like me, and I've never felt so good.
Dusty Rhodes 21:28
And it's such a simple thing. I think you know a lot of us are living a lie in our lives by that I'm saying, "Oh, I'm really happy with my job when I'm not. Do you know what I mean? Or I'm in a wonderful, you know, kind of relationship, or I love all my kids equally when I don't. Do you know what I mean? There's always these kind of little lies, like, you know, kind of. And I admire people in the LGBTQ+ community because you're taking something that is difficult and you're actually kind of doing something about it. And I love that story tomorrow where you say, when you do, and you go, hey world, this is me. Like, just the feeling is just fantastic. Poggy, you have a favourite story.
Poggy Murray Whitham 22:08
Well, again, I would say there are so many different stories that I come into contact with. I co-chair a network of LGBTQ+ engineers across the UK, and you know, having been quite visible in this space for a while now, I've been fortunate enough to know a lot of people in our community in the engineering space, and there are a lot of positive stories about acceptance. About, you know, for example, turning up to interviews and not being questioned on gender identity, and it just being a normal thing that's accepted, you know, without being an issue. About people who have transitioned in the workplace and been supported by their employers, and had that not again not been a few at all, but the stories more recently have certainly, from people I know in England, I would say, have not been massively positive. Stories of people who have been working at their place of work for, you know over 10 years and are now in a position where they feel they have to leave because of certain things that have been enforced because of the HRC credit practice that's been put into place. Stories about people feeling completely unable to work in this industry anymore and wanting to find a different profession because they can't face the people that they work with. People saying that they are being compared with paedophiles and bestiality because of their sexual orientational gender identity. The stories, you know, of not just verbal abuse but physical assaults against them in workplaces. You know, these are real stories, and I'm not going to go into massive detail about any of them because I don't want to, you know, divulge any identifiable information there. But these are real stories that I have been hearing more and more frequently in recent years, and it's heartbreaking.
Dusty Rhodes 23:55
Is that because people are just afraid of something that they don't know, or is it something more sinister?
Poggy Murray Whitham 24:03
As I say, I've been visible in this space as an LGBTQ+ activist for a while, and I have never known as much hostility towards me as a public speaker or a visible role model. Last year, in 2025, for example, I was nominated for and lucky enough to end up as a finalist for a national diversity award for being a positive LGBT role model, and the response that I had to that because that was then published in local and regional press around where I live. The response that I had was disgusting. I've never known that much hate before, but I think that when you have people in positions of authority who are essentially enabling other people to speak out and say exactly what they want with no consequence. Other people see that and think, "Well, if that person can do that, then so can I, and that seems to be creating this environment where people feel able just to say whatever they want and think there's no consequence to it, which unfortunately seems to be true. I mean, even on social media, for example. It's not moderated anywhere near as much as it used to be, so people can say whatever they want on there with very little consequence.
Dusty Rhodes 25:08
For the sake of humanity, something needs to be done. In my head, I like a new word that you've brought into my world today, both of you and allyship. Can you explain to me what allyship is and what is the concept?
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 25:21
Well, there's a lot of different ways to define allyship, but I think the simplest way to boil it down to is supporting the people around you. But it is essential as part of allyship to learn more. No one is expecting you as an ally to know every single flag and know every single term, but part of allyship is opening your mind to that. You can ask the questions, but understand someone might not be prepared to give you the answer. So you have to do the work yourself. You go out and you find good resources. You learn more. You figure out how to support people around you, how to be inclusive in your language, because unfortunately, one of the biggest things that we face every day in the workplace is unconscious bias and not thinking about making jokes like "Asher, that's gay. And for me, yeah, it possibly was a bit gay because that's me. But you know, that's something that is a passing joke that only really lands when it's coming from the right people, and when it's coming from the wrong people, you can feel that energy behind it. So, another part of allyship is when that kind of joke is made, standing up and saying that's not on. We don't say things like that, and why, or questioning why would you say something like that, or why would you think it's okay to do something like that? So you know, a long-winded way of saying there's multiple ways to be an ally, but the biggest parts are learning, supporting, and using your voice to amplify ours.
Dusty Rhodes 27:00
Basically, so it's being an ally, as in being a friend or a supporter, or you don't even have to be a friend. You don't have to be a supporter, but you just have to say, "Ah, come on, guys, you know that that behaviour is not a cough. Just simple little things like that. But I'm thinking, you know, people listening to the podcast today, most of them are engineers. I'm going to take a wild guess that people listening to this particular episode are open and they're curious and they want to find out about all kinds of things that are in the world. I'm wondering why should they learn more? And you know they're just they're straight happy people employed? They don't really care. They're not political. They don't want to get on the back of anything. Why should they learn more about this particular issue? What's going to be in it for them?
Poggy Murray Whitham 27:44
So I referred before to some wider generalisations about the engineering profession as a whole. Going to give a trigger warning here for self-harm and suicidal ideation before I go into this. So in the UK, and I'm pretty sure in Ireland as well, but certainly in the UK, it's a relatively well-known statistic that the biggest kind of men under the age of 50 is suicide. That is already quite a big concern, I would say. What's less well known is that men who work in manufacturing, engineering, and construction are nearly four times as likely to die by suicide than the national average. There is already a massive problem with mental health, well, mental ill health within those professions, and a big part of that is due to the culture and the expectations and cultural norms that are within this sector. Inclusion as a discipline, as something that we're trying to bring more of into the sector isn't just to benefit those marginalised and underrepresented communities in the sector. It is there to benefit everyone. If we can have airspace where we have more psychological safety, and what I mean by that is where people feel more able to express concerns about things, about not just the work that they're doing, but about personal concerns, so they don't have to bottle it up and pretend that they're big, strong men all the time. Then we can have maybe a space where there isn't such a disparity between those rates between the national average and rates within those particular sexes. Something that we tend to be very good at as engineers is physical safety, because it's trained into us from the beginning, but we don't treat psychological safety as anywhere near as important. Something that I do as an EDI professional is try to create that comparative esteem between the two, and try to answer that very question of what's in it for me. And the answer is, well, this work that we're doing isn't just for the LGBTQ+ community, or for women, or for ethnic minorities; it is for everyone. If by doing that we can help readjust those imbalances for underrepresented groups and get more diversity into the profession and into various different workplaces, then obviously that would be brilliant as well. But we are trying to create a safer place. Not just a physically safer place, but a psychologically safer place for everyone.
Dusty Rhodes 30:03
And then it's a safer place, but it's also a friendlier place. And then you know, I think even for that, you get more ideas just bouncing around, like you know, because everybody's got their own interests and whatever, and just bringing that in, like you know, from your experience tomorrow, what do you reckon is in it for regular people? I don't want to call. I don't want to, you know, kind of, you know, kind of slur regular people by calling them regular. But normal, ordinary people.
Poggy Murray Whitham 30:28
Let's not say normal.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 30:30
No, normal is one term that I actually wouldn't use because everybody's normal.
Dusty Rhodes 30:35
Yes.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 30:36
And that's that's that's an unconscious bias. Is that anything that's not like me isn't normal. So part of the di shift is getting that line of thinking erased, being that every person and every experience is just as valid as the other way you come from: your background, your gender identity, your sexual identity. All of that is normal, regardless of how you present. So being cisgender and being straight isn't the default. It's just a part of normal. It's a fraction of a whole umbrella of humanity. So that's why that's one of the reasons that learning is so important for allyship, but also for improving representation and diversity in the workforce, and just to add on to Poggy's point, we have that other unconscious bias where emotionality is tied to femininity and often reflected as something that gay men would represent more. But that then puts that lean on: if you're overly emotional, do you come across as gay, and that's a bad thing? Whereas it's a case of well, actually, expressing yourself is incredibly healthy, and it's not something that only gay men should be doing. Perhaps gay men are doing that more because they tend to talk to women more as equals, and are included more in those social spaces where they're judged less for being emotional, so they feel more comfortable being outwardly expressive of how they feel. But that's not always the case, obviously. But it could be one of the reasons. I'm not a psychologist. I am not going to.
Poggy Murray Whitham 32:17
No, I think the point that we should focus on: we have been raised. I mean, I would say less now, but we are raised in an environment where the whole "boys don't cry" thing is still said to to people. Has been said to to many generations in the past. Unfortunately, in professions like engineering, construction, I would also argue probably police and military environments. You have similar things there as well that aren't particularly healthy. Yeah, it is okay for men to express emotion. Ironically, there is one emotion that men universally seem to be absolutely fine. You know that expressing without judgement, and that is anger, and that shouldn't be the case.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 33:00
Yeah.
Dusty Rhodes 33:01
I have learned something from the pair of you today that I never thought of, and that is normal. I love how you say, "Yeah, well, what is normal? You know, I'm assuming you know my experience and what I know and the people that are around me. That's what normal is, and then everything else is different. But what you're saying and it's brilliant. Everybody's normal. Everybody's experienced. I've learned that today. So my question now is, if I want to learn more, or I just want to be, you know, kind of getting into allyship, or I just want to have a better workplace, and I kind of want to just be more aware of the various people around, and I want to be inclusive. How do I learn more? Now I'm not going to sit down and, you know, kind of do a university course on it, but just in general, how do I learn more?
Poggy Murray Whitham 33:45
I think just by speaking to people, and I think this is something again that people get wrong about DEI work, and people say, "Oh, you're not allowed to say things anymore and quote PC and remote culture and all the rest of it. You speak to 95% of people within the LGBTQ+ community or from any underrepresented or marginalised community. If you have a question about something that you think I'm not really sure about, for example, somebody's pronouns, or how do you define, or what's your heritage, or whatever else, feel free to ask the question. And if you ask it in a way that may not be considered PC most of the time, we'll just say, oh, by the way, you may want to say it like this in future. You know, we're not going to immediately get on our orange boxes and get really offended at things. We are happy to help you. I would caveat that by saying we are not here just to educate people on who we are and on our whole communities all the time. You know, we're not. We do also have jobs to do and lives to lead, but at the same time, if you have a question, just speak to people about it, and I think that's an absolutely fine way of doing things.
Dusty Rhodes 34:48
And that brings us right back to inclusion, because just by asking questions or having, you know, kind of a micro conversation with somebody, it's just being inclusive. That's all it
Poggy Murray Whitham 34:58
is, and being in an environment where. Feel able to ask those questions.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 35:02
Yes, and asking those questions itself can start fostering that sort of environment. For a few people in my workplace, it can be as simple as adding your pronouns into your email signature. It's a very easy way to show, "Hey, I'm considering this. And for people in the queer community, it tends to be a little bit of a visual marker of opening the door to that conversation. Yeah. But just to add on to that, people are a resource, but you also have groups like Belong to, Outhouse, Tenny, so the Trans Equality Network Ireland. Those are three really amazing resources and places you can go to to find out more about the terminology before you even approach a person, because one of the exhausting things about being a representative for the LGBTQ+ community is the questions, and it's the simple questions that can get really tiring because they're things that a quick Google search can answer.
Dusty Rhodes 36:00
Go on, but listen. Give me the top question you're always asked.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 36:03
Well, I mean, one of them is what is being trans? Like, what is trans? What does that mean? And you can very quickly search that up on Tenny and find really good, comprehensive answers that describe it way better than the average person ever could. And a lot of them are provided by people who identify with the trans identity and have firsthand experience, so they have a way more comprehensive overview of the trans identity.
Dusty Rhodes 36:30
Yeah.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 36:31
So for me, I'm a cisgender woman. I identify with the gender that I was or the sex I was assigned at birth. My gender aligns with that. Whereas for trans people, their gender doesn't align with the sex that they were assigned at birth, and it's a very personal thing. So it can be very different for every single person, but overall, doing the basic level of research for yourself can mean that you're approaching with a better base level of understanding.
Poggy Murray Whitham 37:01
I would also say I wouldn't want to discourage people from asking. No, but at the same time, yeah. When it's like two questions one after another, it gets a bit okay. Yeah, this might be a bit much now. You know.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 37:14
It's kind of like trying to get into calculus without understanding basic addition. If you learn math from the ground up, you're going to have a better level of understanding of the more complex stuff. Yeah. So learning the basic terminology by yourself with a little bit of assistance can make things a lot easier.
Dusty Rhodes 37:31
So basically, kind of, if people are kind of curious, well, if you meet somebody who is part of the LGBTQ+ community, well, then just go up and say, "Hey, how are you? You know, tell me more about your point of view in the world. What's a good opening question? I don't even know where to start.
Poggy Murray Whitham 37:47
It depends on what you want to know. As long as you're approaching it with an open mind and immediately then getting defensive if the answer isn't something you'd heard before, you know, if, for example, you ask a question, somebody corrects you, and then you continue to use the previous version of whatever it is. Then that becomes quite a negative situation, you know. Yeah.
Dusty Rhodes 38:11
No, but if you're if you're open and you're curious, then it will come across. And if you're polite and stuff like that, you know, people will chat.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 38:16
Is it along the lines of you can approach and say, "Hi, can I ask you a question about this?
Dusty Rhodes 38:22
Yeah, would you be okay with that?
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 38:22
Opens the door to them saying yes, okay, ask away, or no, I don't feel comfortable discussing that. Yeah, and if they agree to it, you should be an active listener. And it comes back to that: active listening is a key part of allyship because if you're asking for people's stories and their identities and stuff that's so incredibly personal. You need to make sure you're paying attention to that. You can't ask a question and then zone off, staring at something in the background because we're all random.
Poggy Murray Whitham 38:54
Whilst they're done answering the first one, yeah.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 38:56
Yeah.
Dusty Rhodes 38:57
So tell me about employers. We do have employers who listen, and we have people who are close to the C-level who are listening to the podcast. You know, kind of just little things that they can do within the organisation to try and promote. I was about to say inclusivism. Is that even a word?
Poggy Murray Whitham 39:13
Inclusivity.
Dusty Rhodes 39:14
Inclusivity. There you go.
Poggy Murray Whitham 39:15
Something I talk about a lot is that inclusion isn't always about brand justices; particularly in engineering, when you think about inclusion, it's quite easy to think about the huge, multi-million-dollar programmes and initiatives, and the big, you know, global companies and these companies who may have whole teams of DEI experts and PR and HR and all of these other things. But inclusion can begin in the smallest of moments. To use an engineering analogy, making small, repeated corrections on something can be a much easier and much safer way than waiting for catastrophic failure in a huge change all at once. Yeah, and that is something that we can do by making small everyday moments. That can make little bits a little bit better, and doing that repeatedly can make a big difference over time. I think, particularly at the moments when there is such pushback against BEI work generally, actually, that might be a safer way to do things: is doing things in small everyday moments. But I think they shouldn't be underrated either, because those small everyday moments can have such a big impact on people. Something that you may consider could to be well completely insignificant to you-a word, a phrase that you use, holding a door open, or just some random action that you do that you may not think of-could have such a lasting impact on somebody else.
Dusty Rhodes 40:43
Listen, both of you are working with Engineers Ireland, just as an overall group. Tell me, kind of, what are you doing?
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 40:50
For me, I use Engineers Ireland a lot for like training and events that come down the line. Engineers Ireland are pretty good at putting on things like Women in Engineering, and they're just there; the last panel we were on together was their second year in a row doing an LGBTQ+ event, which was good to see. But you know, it's also late in the game compared to other things. So, you know, even such a progressive and inclusive organisation such as Engineers Island took a while to catch up to other stuff that's been going on for a while.
Dusty Rhodes 41:21
Have they gone so far as to have kind of like, you know, a panel dedicated or you know kind of a section, if you like, dedicated LGBTQ+? They have.
Poggy Murray Whitham 41:30
Oh yeah, given that we were
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 41:32
Yes, it was.
Poggy Murray Whitham 41:33
All right, and I can't go on an engineering podcast without asking you how each of you just got into engineering in the first place. What's your story, Paki? So it was aviation that got me into engineering. I was in the area first when I was younger. I studied aerospace engineering at university. I then went into automation engineering and reached senior management for a global engineering company at the age of 20-nine, but left my technical engineering career behind in 2024 to focus full time on DEI work. But since then, you know, I've become chief operating officer of the UK's number one DI survey and data analytics platform. I have my own consultancy. I released a book last year that became a bestseller. Somehow, I've done a TEDx talk on this work, so it's been an interesting time. I've been involved in the I work, as I said before, for 1718, years. I've done it for a long time, but I was doing it alongside my engineering career. It's been more recently that I've connected those two plus my life together.
Dusty Rhodes 42:35
And Tymora, how did you get involved in engineering?
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 42:38
Much shorter CV than that one. I think part of it started when I was younger. My dad was very into motorbikes, so part of that was constructing motorbikes. One of my dad's, I have two of them. Don't worry about it. And he actually taught me how to change a clutch on a Kawasaki 112 100. Yeah, don't remember how to do it now, but it was a big part of seeing how things came apart and putting them back together, which was really interesting. And I always enjoyed mathematics, so I kind of went from there into, okay, well, what combines the two of those? Engineering could be an interesting one. So I went into college with a degree that started as integrated. So I did a little bit of computers, mechanical, civil, and during those years, I realised that energy security and greener futures were a really important part for me. So I went into civil engineering, and from there, I became a graduate engineer with ESB, and now I'm a professional engineer working in ESP, building solar farms. So I went from offshore wind to solar, and I'm quite comfortably here.
Dusty Rhodes 43:51
Excellent, right at the cutting edge. Well, listen, thank you both for joining us on the podcast today. If you'd like to learn out more about Tymora and Poggy or the initiatives that are driving our industry forward, to check out the links in our show notes. But for now, Tymora Freeman-Stannett and Poggy Murray Whitham, thank you so much for joining us.
Tymora Freeman-Stannett 44:07
Thank you for having me.
Dusty Rhodes 44:09
We hope you enjoyed our conversation today. If you know another engineer who's passionate about building a great workplace and designing accessible spaces, please share this podcast with them. They can find us just by searching for Engineers Ireland, wherever they listen to their podcasts. This episode is produced by dustpod.io for Engineers Ireland for advanced episodes, resource toolkits, or career development advice. There's a wealth of resources on the website at Engineers Ireland.ie. Until next time, from me, Dusty Rhodes. Thank you for listening.